Exercise, Empathy & Oncology: Lessons From a Stage 4 Cancer Survivor | Tim Baker

After being diagnosed with stage 4 metastatic prostate cancer at 50 years old, Tim Baker was told there wasn’t much he could do. What followed completely changed his understanding of health, exercise, identity and mortality.
In this episode, Tim shares how Exercise Physiology, surfing, meditation, writing and community became central pillars in his cancer journey. EPs and health professionals will walk away with powerful lessons on patient care, behaviour change, communication, vulnerability and the human side of oncology that often goes unspoken

Guest handles:
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/timbaker/
Website - https://timbaker.com

Resources:
Padding the Shark by Tim Baker - https://www.amazon.com.au/s?k=Padding+the+Shark
Tim Baker's Website - https://timbaker.com
Australian Story Episode on Tim Baker - https://www.abc.net.au/austory/tim-baker/
Monash University Prostate Cancer Research Group - https://www.monash.edu/medicine/sphpb/prostate-cancer-research-group
Peter MacCallum Cancer Centre - https://www.petermac.org
Australian Prostate Cancer Foundation Telehealth Services - https://www.prostate.org.au

Checkout our range of courses: https://exphyscpd.com/

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to the Successful EP, the podcast where we talk to leading exercise physiologists, health professionals, and in this case, people with lived experience about building successful, impactful careers, running thriving businesses, and advancing the profession. I'm your host, Lenny Hazwood, founder and exercise physiologist at Adapt Movement Physiology and Growth Specialist at XFIS CBD. On this show, we dive into stories, strategies, and lessons from EPs, health professionals, and people with lived experience doing exceptional work and spark conversations that EPs should be having but often aren't. Today's guest is Tim Baker. Tim Baker is a best-selling author, journalist, storyteller, cancer advocate, and one of Australia's most respected voices in surfing culture and humans storytelling. Over the past four decades, Tim has built an extraordinary career across books, journalism, film, theatre, and public speaking. He's the author of numerous acclaimed books, including Padding the Shark, Hockey, and Century of Surf, whilst also serving as former editor of Iconic Publications, Track Magazine, and Surfing Life. His work has appeared in outlets including Rolling Stones, The Sydney Morning Herald, and Australian Financial Review. In 2015, Tim was diagnosed with a stage four metastatic prostate cancer, an experience that led him into advocacy, research, and deeper work exploring communication, identity, and the human side of cancer care. He completed a PhD through Griffith University, focused on the language of cancer care, is now a research fellow with Monarch University's Prostate Cancer Research Group, and facilitates a peer support reading group at Peter McCallum Cancer Center. In this episode, EPs and health professionals can expect to learn about communication in healthcare, the role of storytelling in patient care, the psychological realities of living with cancer, and how clinicians can build deeper human connection with people they support. For people living with cancer and their relatives, they can hope to gain insight into the emotional and practical challenges that often go unspoken, feel more understood in their experience, and walk away the greatest sense of empowerment, perspective, and hope throughout the cancer journey. Tim, welcome.

SPEAKER_02 2:01

Thanks, Lyd. Lovely introduction. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 2:04

Well mate, I'm super keen to jump in. Yeah, super, super keen. Starting off, like, you know, you've done a lot of fantastic work in the surfing side of things, which I wasn't even aware of when we initially reached out to each other. Yeah, I'm curious, like jumping into that side of things from the the surfing and the journalism there to then, you know, advocating around cancer care. Were there any sort of major turning points in your journey there?

SPEAKER_02 2:30

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I sometimes feel like my life has been a series of kind of sliding doors moments. I mean, maybe everyone feels that way, but I don't know, it just feels particularly acute in my case. I think I started off in newspapers. I was destined for the life of an Aussie rules footy writer at the old Melbourne Sun, loved my football, and then I saw an ad advertised at Tracks Surfing Magazine. I also loved my surfing. So I applied for that job without any expectations, and lo and behold, I got it. So ran away from newspapers to work for a surfing magazine. Yeah, worked at Tracks for five years. Um, kind of got poached by the opposition, moved to the Gold Coast to work for surfing life for five years, and then I quit that job ostensibly to write a book called Bustin' Down the Door, which was the biography of 1978 world champ Wayne Rabbit Bartholomew. And yeah, life was gone pretty good, you know, family, living close to the beach, surf, travel, writing books. Um, and then yeah, post-turning 50 regulation checkout with my GP. Um, you know, had a whole heap of tests done and including a prostate check and yeah, got the worst possible news, not just uh diagnosing of prostate cancer, but metastatic cancer. So it had already spread to the bone. So that was just complete shell shock, and it's been a long journey since then, trying to um I guess just kind of make sense of it and try and find a way to navigate the diagnosis and live a good life, and yeah, learned a hell of a lot along the way. And yeah, exercise has absolutely been uh key to that journey.

SPEAKER_00 4:06

Yeah, I guess just following on from that, that um that already that history and in exercise, did that seem to help when you know you were told about or were you told about the benefits of exercise back then when when you first had that diagnosis where I imagine there would have been a lot of things going on and that probably was maybe the last thing you would have been thought about.

SPEAKER_02 4:27

Yeah, well, no, I was super motivated. I mean, I was 50, my kids were nine and thirteen, and I just wanted to know what I could do to kind of improve my prognosis. And the overwhelming message I got from the medical fraternity was really not much, you know, which was pretty disempowering. And it was actually a naturopath who I went and saw who was a former oncology nurse herself, woman named Sarah Franklin, who's an absolute ripper, because she has that medical background, but she's also a great believer in all the allied health stuff patients can do and adopt for themselves. And she said there's this research around exercise for men with prostate cancer, particularly high-intensity interval training. And she was really the first person who gave me something I could do to sort of improve my situation. And I had a good mate who was a personal trainer. He set me up with a program at the local surf club gym. And then yeah, I did a bunch of stuff. I discovered there was an exercise clinic for cancer patients. I was living on the Gold Coast at this point, and there was an exercise clinic for cancer patients at the University of Queensland with their fourth year ex-FIS students. And a lot of universities have a similar sort of program because it's, you know, it's good experience for the students, and it's a great, you know, exercise program for the participants, and you can access it at no or low cost when you know those services can be pretty expensive when you're managing a cancer diagnosis. And I just discovered it was absolutely the best thing for me. I mean, this is before a lot of the evidence, you know, that's coming out now about just how profound the benefits are, but it was enough that it just made me feel so good, you know. And the more I did it, the better I felt. And I think what was really important too is is supervised exercise. You know, when you when you prescribed hormone therapy, you suffer from fatigue, and you know, you can be feeling pretty traumatized by the diagnosis. And I I just remember that exercise clinic at UQ. I had a couple of young, keen ex-fiz students just cheering me on, and you know, it was it was a fantastic experience. Um, and I think that really turned me on to the benefits of exercise. And then I I took part in a clinical trial called the Gap for Intervals Study, which was looking to explore the benefits of supervised exercise. But I could have I could have saved him a lot of time and money and told him Absolutely, supervised exercise is the way to go. Because it's hard, it's hard to be self-motivated sometimes over the journey. So working with someone who's qualified who can help you exercise safely and customize a routine to your own capacities is really important, I reckon.

SPEAKER_00 7:09

Yeah, no, it's it's great to hear that from your perspective. Did you have any objections when you first heard about exercise whilst being on that journey? I guess I'm coming at it from the sense, Tim, that perhaps some people that have been told about their diagnosis may be more wary about doing exercise. Was that the case with you?

SPEAKER_02 7:34

No, not at all. And I I don't really know why. I mean, I'd always surfed. I knew how good surfing made me feel. I mean, I had bone metastases, my whole right femur was full of cancer. And so if anyone should have been cautious about exercise, it was probably me. And hormone therapy affects bone density. But, you know, working with someone qualified, you know, you've I always felt like I was in pretty safe hands. And I think I became pretty good at listening to my body as well. And when something just left me feeling really good, I was pretty prepared to kind of trust my instincts in that regard. You know, obviously there is a bit of caution needed, particularly with bone metastases. But yeah, I think, you know, X Fizz should be just like such an essential part of anyone's standard care with a cancer diagnosis. You know, exercise is medicine. As we say, if there was a pill that did for us what exercise would do, we'd all be taking it, right? Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 8:29

On on the topic, on that same topic, to tell dive a little bit more into your experience or your um journey in the clinic, um, did you have any sort of instances where there were hiccups of, oh, I don't know if I should be doing this or oh, I don't know why I'm doing this, or you know, I guess um trying to relate it to potential people that may be living with this or their or relatives, um, you know, any sort of pain like, oh, is this the right thing to be doing? Any of those uncertainties at all?

SPEAKER_02 8:56

Yeah, not really. I mean, I was pretty sold on it pretty quickly, you know. And I know others, you know, I've I've met plenty of other people who are a bit more cautious about exercise. And I think it's a bit of a it's a bit of a hangover from the days in which we thought cancer patients need to just be wrapped in cotton wool and rested, you know. And as it turns out, that's the worst possible thing, you know, loss of bone density, loss of muscle mass. You know, we were talking about off camera, you know, Dr. Robert Newton's book, My Exercise Medicine, and the, you know, the sad experience he had watching his father waste away because that was the prevailing wisdom in at that time that cancer patients just needed rest. You know, if there's one thing I've learned, um, cancer-related fatigue is not something you can rest your way out of. Doesn't matter how much you rest, it doesn't make it go away. In fact, it probably compounds it. And it's maybe a bit counterintuitive that, you know, the best way to shake that kind of fatigue and lethargy is to move, move the body, get the blood pumping, get the oxygen flowing. And the benefits, I said, as I said, was it was so immediate and so profound that I didn't really have any reservations. There's there's been times when I don't recover from exercise as well as I used to. And my oncologist says that's uh that's a side effect of hormone therapy. Um we might talk about this more, but you know, hormone therapy prostate cancer suppresses testosterone. And it turns out testosterone helps you recover from exercise. So I I do have to be careful. If I if I overdo it, I can be pretty wrecked the next day, and so I've got to um find a kind of sustainable routine because I think that regularity and continuity is is what you want. You don't want to sort of go hard and then not be able to exercise for a few days, you know. And I've I've certainly experienced that where maybe I overdid things a little bit and was and paid for it the next day. So I've kind of went through trial and error.

SPEAKER_00 10:55

Yeah. Do you feel like, you know, having that surfing background may have helped like shape your perspective on, you know, health and and exercise and that sort of thing versus if you hadn't had had that background?

SPEAKER_02 11:07

Yeah, definitely. I mean, surfing is a pretty remarkable activity. You know, I've often said I've never been so grateful to be a surfer as since my diagnosis, because it combines so many things. You know, when you're when you're paddling out and you're duck diving, it's this really intense cardio workout, you know, you're sucking in big breaths and having to hold your breath and then duck dive waves, and you know, you've got to paddle hard to get out through the break. And then once you're out the back, it it can be this really lovely kind of meditative experience, you know, and you're just staring out at the horizon and you you're trying to spot those telltale signs of a shift in the colour of the ocean where a swell is kind of forming, and and then the riding of the wave itself is this really kind of gymnastic thing and quite, you know, euphoric. So I got I got really lucky with surfing, you know. I think it was I call it saltwater therapy. And yeah, I was fortunate. My my son was nine when I was diagnosed, and he had just contracted what I call, you know, a really acute case of saltwater fever and just wanted to go surfing at every opportunity. And the the fact that dad had a cancer diagnosis and was going through chemotherapy wasn't gonna stand in the way of him getting his ocean fix. So he'd he'd get me out of bed and insist I take him surfing. Um I always say, yeah, I think, you know, young Alex was my most powerful healer for getting me in the ocean when I left my own devices. I probably would have just stayed under the Duna.

SPEAKER_00 12:39

That's a powerful story. And also I haven't heard of someone talk about surfing that way before. That's uh nice way to put it. I do a little bit of surfing myself, but uh nowhere near uh the professional level. Got a nice soft longboard that's about I think it's a nine or ten inch.

SPEAKER_02 12:55

Yeah. Yeah, hey, however, you get out there, mate. I mean, I surf at a very modest level these days, you know. My surfing has taken a bit of a hit just with age and you know the effects of treatments, but getting in the ocean remains as sweet as ever, you know, probably more so.

SPEAKER_00 13:13

Do you feel like um when when that uh diagnosis happened, like of course um I can only I can only imagine what it would have felt like. Was there like a a shift in your of course there would have been a shift in your perspective, but do you feel like there was a shift in your identity when that happened?

SPEAKER_02 13:33

Oh yeah, absolutely. I mean I've done been doing a little bit of writing lately because I've been thinking about a like a sequel to my book Padding the Shark. And, you know, in reflecting on it now, 10 or 11 years on, you know, I've realized it sort of stripped away a lot of the markers that kind of give you your identity. You know, hormone therapy impacts your masculinity and your physicality, your sexuality. You know, it probably affected my ability to pursue my career at times. There's a bit of a cognitive effect of hormone therapy, a bit of brain fog. And, you know, I went through a marriage breakup four years ago, which was was pretty difficult. So, and I've I've moved from the Gold Coast back down to my old hometown of Melbourne. So it's kind of completely up-ended my life and redesigned my lifestyle and my priorities in in really profound ways. And in some ways, you know, not all bad, because I guess a lot of the old cliches start to ring true when you go through an experience like this, you know, don't sweat the small stuff, and every day's a gift. And you know, I wake up in the morning pretty grateful that I can still just function and use my body and you know, get to an exercise class or go for a swim or a surf or go to the gym. Life's small pleasures feel really rich, and you know, my relationships with my kids are as precious as as anything in my in my world. So work when I feel like it. I'm I've got a bit of privilege in that regard, you know, freelance writer, I can work um if and when I choose. But yeah, completely redesign my life in a way that I don't can't imagine anything else would have. And as I said, you know, it's not not all of it bad, some of it for the better. I think I'm a better person. I think I'm a karma. Oddly, you know, maybe even a happier person in some ways, which sounds odd to say. But a lot of, you know, just the um, you know, the trivial stuff in life just kind of drops away. And I really try and live in the present moment and do the things that bring me joy, you know?

SPEAKER_00 15:36

This is a a very minor version of what you just said, Tim. But I I um I guess if we were to have a perfect life or everything went good all the time, then you would never appreciate it. Um and of course, from this perspective that you're coming off, when such a traumatic I hope that's an okay word to use. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. When a traumatic event happens, um, I imagine all the smaller negative things feel very minute in comparison.

SPEAKER_02 16:02

Yeah, yeah. I mean, one of my it's funny, I sometimes feel like a bit of a bower bird. Like I collect all these little gems and truisms along the way, and one of my favorite quotes is, you know, you can have a thousand problems in life until you have a health problem, and then you only have one problem. Um, and I think that's that's really true because you're not you're not worrying about, I don't know, your tax bill or, you know, whether you got a parking fine or I don't know, whether your football team lost, you know. Yeah. And it, yeah, as I've said, it really puts things into perspective. Um, you know, oddly, you know, one of my focuses has been kind of making peace with my mortality and without wanting to sound, you know, morbid about it, but I guess I've taken a bit of a Buddhist approach to that idea that, you know, life is impermanent. And people in the West, I think, can get really uncomfortable with that kind of talk. But when you really embrace the idea that, you know, life is impermanent, we're all gonna die, um, it makes every day really precious. And I I really try and embrace that and live that. And yeah, I think it's been a a real benefit for me along the journey for sure.

SPEAKER_00 17:13

Do you think that perspective shift would have still happened later in your life if you hadn't had that diagnosis?

SPEAKER_02 17:21

Yeah, it's it's hard to say, not to the same dramatic extent, you know. I think, you know, the fact that I sort of kind of leant that way once I got my diagnosis was because I had sort of an interest in those kind of things. I'd done a bit of yoga, I'd done a bit of meditation, I'd done a bit of Buddhist reading, and it and it all really made sense to me. Um, and I think the the big turning point um in in my journey was when I shifted my focus from to making peace with my mortality. Like I want to live, I want to live as long as possible, I want to see my kids grow up. I did a couple of residential retreats with a a noted um cancer survivor named Ian Gawler, um, who ran uh retreats in the Yarra Valley, and I learned a lot from him. And and one of the things he said was that really stayed with me was um an acceptance of our mortality is entirely compatible with a will to live. So it's it's not like you're running up the white flag and going, oh well, life's over. You're just accepting the fact that, well, at some point we're all gonna die, and I'm not gonna spend all my energy just trying to hold this fear of death at bay. I'm actually gonna try and free myself up emotionally so I can live fully in the moment with the understanding that, yeah, life, life is impermanent. Um, and I think that's that's really helped me. That's been a uh that was a real pivotal shift, I think, because I realized if I was a purely focused on my survival, that was largely out of my control, you know, and I'd be sweating on every scan, every blood test and pre-meditation and a bit of reading and and that sort of thing. Yeah, I just feel much calmer and much more, I guess, philosophical or accepting of the uncertainty that I live with, you know?

SPEAKER_00 19:11

That makes sense. Yeah. Zooming back out and and looking at that experience of specifically that event where you were told for the first time about this diagnosis. Do you recall the language that was used?

SPEAKER_02 19:25

Yeah, yeah, I re I really do. And it's it's really informed, you know, some of the um the academic research I've done around language and cancer from a PhD. And, you know, I think when you get a cancer diagnosis, um, I say you become hypersensitive to language. So you sit in these medical consultations and you're listening to your urologist or your oncologist kind of explaining the clinical picture. And a lot of the medical, technical language kind of goes over your head. You know, you're you're new to this world and they're kind of speaking a different language and you're sort of trying to keep track. And, you know, I think there are studies that show most patients retain maybe 10% of information they're given in a consult. But, you know, when there's kind of emotive or descriptive language, you know, the thing I remember is my urologist saying, pointing to my bone scan, you know, pointing to the cancer in in my right femur and saying the horse has bolted. And that phrase just seared itself into my subconscious because it meant the cancer had spread beyond the prostate. And, you know, anyone who knows anything about cancer would know once it's spread to the bone, that's pretty much the worst case scenario. And that's that's a pretty grim prognosis. So hearing those words was just like a gut punch, you know. I can't, I don't think I can adequately convey just the sheer terror of hearing those words, you know, and there's almost a cognitive dissonance, like, I can't believe this is happening, this can't be happening, like this isn't how my life is supposed to go. And I can't think of another moment in certainly in my life where you just kind of cross a threshold in a moment like that, and life is changed forever, and there's no way of getting back to your old life, like you're on a new path. In fact, another one of my favorite little truisms is something a yoga teacher said to me at the end of a yoga class in Shivasna, and she said, What's what's in the way is the way. What they mean by that is, you know, a cancer diagnosis could be seen as an obstacle to get over to get back to your old life, but I don't think you can do that. That it is actually a new path and a new life that you have to embark upon. And if you're trying to somehow get back to your old life, you're just gonna get frustrated and and depressed and f um, you know, miserable that your old life is not no longer attainable, and you've got to embrace all the things that this new path both asks of you and and kind of offers you, you know. Like I've got the most compelling reason in the world. Well, to take good care of my health. And in fact, when I look around, you know, I'm 61, I've been living with stage four cancer for 11 years, and I feel like I'm doing pretty well for an old bloke, you know. And I look around at my mates and my peers, and a lot of them, you know, everyone sort of feels sorry for me and thinks I've got this terrible diagnosis. But I don't know, I reckon I'll I I'll outlive a few of them because I work so bloody hard at it, you know. I I watch what I eat and I exercise every day, and I see a lot of blokes my age who still, you know, get on the beers and spend too much time on the couch. And, you know, in some ways you can see it as a blessing to get that wake-up call and it kick up the ass that you've got to, you know, get made the most of every day. So such a positive way to look at it. Yeah, I think you've just got to you've got to try and find the gift in it, you know. That's at least that's sort of been my philosophy because you know, it's tough. There's no denying it. I still have my the blue days, and there's still times when I've kind of wake up in the night and go, geez, how'd it come to this? But you know, most days are pretty joyful, and it just it's just a better way to try and live your life, you know. And I've I've been I've been really fortunate. I've had some great allies and supporters, and I've had the good fortune of meeting some really inspiring people and access to really good allied health support. And that's not easy for everyone through cost or geography, you know, it's tougher for blokes in or cancer patients in regional areas and all that sort of thing. So I'm really aware of my privilege, but I think you know, wherever you find yourself, there are there are ways to try and find the silver lining, even in the grimmest of circumstances.

SPEAKER_00 23:42

Just to V-wind for a second, if you because if you were uh if you had this back for a second, if you had this prognosis um and you've just been given it, and you mentioned that you sort of had to like shift your expectations in a sense of rather than try to get back to your old life, embrace this new life, what would you say to someone that has been given this diagnosis and is still fighting to try to get back to their old life? They hadn't quite realigned their expectations or or their experience with that embracement of the new life.

SPEAKER_02 24:18

Yeah, look, I mean it's highly personal, and I'm I'm kind of reluctant to give you know too much advice because everyone's different and everyone's diagnosis is different and how they make sense of it is different. But I I would say, you know, um if you if you can embrace, you know, some of the tenets of kind of just healthy living, you know, I I have this self-prescribed lifestyle mantra that you've just got to take your meds, M-E-D-S. And that stands for meditation, exercise, diet, and sleep. And I love that. And it it was just a handy shorthand, you know, when I started researching what I could do that was likely to make a difference. And I that's what I settled on. Those became the four pillars of my self-care. And I feel pretty, I feel pretty confident in saying to anyone, you know, if you can embrace those pillars, meditation, exercise, diet, and sleep, even without a cancer diagnosis, you know, you're going to be a whole lot better. And look, it's easier said than done sometimes, you know. I think disciplined fatigue is a thing. You know, you can I came out of the gates really hard when I was diagnosed. You know, I was so determined, you know, my kids were young, was relative apart from the diagnosis, I was relatively fit and healthy. I was a surfer, I did yoga, you know, had some experience meditating. I was just like, I'm gonna use all these things. And even though my oncologist wasn't particularly encouraging, you know, I didn't really, you know, support the benefit of all these things. I I knew how good they made me feel. And so I'll just encourage people just to do what they can, not to be too hard on themselves, but you know, if you can begin to clean up your diet, how have whatever you can do that's a bit better than what you've been doing, if you can exercise a bit better, if you can eat a bit better, if you can reduce stress in your life, you know, I I just started shedding commitments, you know. I think I quit about three volunteer committees I was on, and and it's really I took it as sort of this sort of carte blanche to just do what felt best for me. And I and I felt like no one was really going to quibble with a stage four cancer patient about being selfish, you know, if you're just doing the things that make you feel good. And I guess I would just encourage people to just dip your toe in the water, even if you think something like meditation feels a bit woo-woo or you know, it feels difficult to focus on nutrition when you're reeling from a cancer diagnosis. If you can just take baby steps, you know, eat a bit better, find a meditation app or a guided meditation online. But when you do a little bit of any of these things, exercise, good sleep hygiene, and once you start to feel feeling the benefits, I think you just naturally want, want to keep doing it. And that that was certainly the case for me. I think there's a bit of a it's like sort of getting a rock moving, you know, you've got a big heavy boulder, it takes a bit of effort to get it rolling, but once it's rolling, you get a bit of momentum. And now I I really enjoy all the sort of um the pillars of that lifestyle. And it's pretty simple stuff, you know, it doesn't have to be expensive or complicated. And I think, you know, our modern healthcare system, we've become too reliant on just pharmaceuticals and you know, just tell doing what the doctor tells us. And certainly I'm a great believer in medical science. And, you know, I like to say I'm alive today thanks to medical science and all the things that modern medicine has been able to offer me, but I'm alive and well because of all the things I do for myself. So, you know, it's one thing just to take the drugs and do what your doctor tells you to do. But I think patients need to be given the tools to manage side effects of treatment and maintain quality of life. And I think there's much more that the medical mainstream could do to sort of give that advice and give that that guidance right from the outset and give give people something to do. All I wanted when I first got my diagnosis was like, what give me something to do and I'll do it. Just tell me what I need to do to improve my prognosis. And, you know, as I said, the message I was given was just pretty much hand overall power to the medical practitioners and you know, just do what we tell you and take the medication. You know, there's really not much you can do. And I think that is profoundly the wrong message. And I think, you know, the research is borne out now, 10 years on, the benefits of things like exercise and nutrition and stress reduction. So yeah, whatever you can do, just baby steps, don't give yourself a hard time, don't beat yourself up if you find it difficult, find some good support. You know, we're really lucky in this country with Medicare. If you've got a chronic illness, you can access access a care plan through your GP, um, which gives you five referrals subsidized by Medicare for Allied Health. And I I take all five of my care plan referrals for XFIS. I I just take Oh yes. Yeah. Because I just know it's the best thing for me, you know. And as I said, that that guided exercise, having someone kind of cheering you on or cracking the whip, you're always going to do a bit more than you can do just when you're sort of having to self-motivate. So yeah, I think however you can find those supports and having a having a few good people in your corner, you know, whether you've got a partner or family who can help, because when you're reeling from the diagnosis, it it can be tough, you know, trying to put those supports in place. But yeah, you need a bit of a team and a bit of a support crew to help you along as well.

SPEAKER_00 29:48

Yeah, absolutely. There's a there's a lot of the things you touched on there, and uh I have a few questions arising from that and and also just some just some comments on that as well. Like I think you're totally right, Tim, in the sense of I think the I think the healthcare industry as a whole is really starting to shift now more than more than it has in entire history beforehand from that pharmaceutical passive approach to more of that alternative or holistic and comprehensive proactive approach to to health. And I really hope that is something that continues to develop throughout the next decade as well, because if we if we continue to rely on things like those medications, and of course medications have a time and place, but we're taking power away from the people. And just to go back to a couple of things like self-determination theory, it posits that people are naturally driven to grow and and succeed. And if we want people to maximize their potential in that aspect, I think having autonomy needs to be one of the key three things. And if you just say, like you mentioned before, I think your oncologist wasn't particularly encouraging, and that you sort of felt like, I'll just listen to this person, just do what you're told, you take away that autonomy, and that's one of the key drivers to success. And I think I think hopefully you've had this experience that X exercise physiology is about not just you know telling someone what to do and doing the exercise, it's more about maybe it's more hands-on support to start with, and then guiding them towards more of a proactive self-management approach. And then, of course, if you need a little bit of extra push from time to time again, we're happy to help.

SPEAKER_02 31:28

Yeah. I mean, I had an interesting experience recently, and I must say I've got a great oncologist now who's really supportive of what I do, and I had to had to get rid of my original oncologist. But he was running late, and I had a an appointment with my oncologist at two o'clock, and I had an appointment with my EP at three o'clock, and he was running so late that I missed the EP appointment, and she came out and said, Oh, look, I'm really sorry, I've got someone else booked in. I you know, I can't see you because this appointment's gone over time. Uh, but of course, your oncologist is more important, and I actually quite kind of question that. I mean, yes, the oncology appointment is important, but he just looks at a blood test and says, keep taking your medication. Whereas I had pain in my hip and I really wanted to fine-tune my exercise program. And in that instance, I actually reckon I would have gotten more benefit from the EP than the oncologist, you know. So it's not a it's not an either-or or a competition, you know. And I I think, you know, again, you know, sounding a bit Buddhist, but I'm a great believer that the the answer's in the middle way, you know, and I think sometimes cancer patients will give sold this sort of false dichotomy that, you know, you subject yourself to these really toxic treatments and suffer all these awful side effects, or you go the alternative route and try all these kind of wacky kind of alternative folk remedies and stuff. And, you know, I just don't think that's the case. I mean, you can follow the medical science and you can follow really sensible evidence-based allied health support as well. And I think if the medical mainstream, you know, bring the evidence-based allied health inside the oncology tent, then it kind of exposes all the kind of dubious snake oil and you know, yeah. When you get a cancer diagnosis, everyone comes out of the woodwork with some kind of crazy kind of folk remedy. Interesting. So I think, you know, when an oncologist start to embrace and promote the benefits of things like exercise and nutrition and stress reduction and meditation, then, you know, we c we can see the things that that are credible, and then we can see the things that don't really have any evidence to support them because there's no shortage of people who are trying to sell you, you know, expensive alternative treatments. And cancer patients are vulnerable, you know, and it's easy to exploit their desperation. I think we need a healthcare system that really embraces all this, all the evidence-based allied health stuff, and so people don't have to go looking for the wacky folk remedies.

SPEAKER_00 34:04

Yeah. I definitely, definitely think, um, and you you would uh have experienced this um now, I do definitely think it's gotten a lot better compared to what it was. So hopefully it continues to develop that way. Yeah. I guess throughout your throughout your journey as well, Tim, did you find any instances like that um that circumstance mentioned around one of your oral oncologists? Wasn't it wasn't particularly encouraging? Did you find any instances where they or any sorry, any examples of of language that they used or communication that they used that weren't very positive towards uh, you know, exercise or the diet or the meds as you put it?

SPEAKER_02 34:44

Yeah. I mean, it's one of the examples I I often give is um I remember I'd been seeing my oncologist for three or four years and you know, I was working really hard at it, I was trying to exercise every day, I was eating well, you know, most of my meals I'd prepare from scratch with fresh whole foods. You know, I was meditating twice a day. And um, you know, I'd go into his office and I'd wait in the waiting room for a while and get to see him. He'd just look at a blood test and write me a script and say, keep taking these and come back in two months. And I remember I said to him at one point, look, you know, I'm working really hard at this. I'm doing everything I can to try and stay fit and healthy. Like, how do you think I'm doing? And he and he looked a bit put out because oncologists are often time poor, they've got a waiting room full of people. And he he kind of looked at me as if he was a bit annoyed and went, Well, you know, you're about average. You know, some of my patients are doing better, some are doing worse, you're about average. And I couldn't believe it. I'm like, I was literally giving him an opening to say some encouraging words. Yeah. And he just completely missed it, you know. And and I I've actually read research, this is a common phenomenon that a lot of oncologists they miss those what they call empathetic moments, you know, where your patient is asking for some empathy. You know, oncologists I think have a particular psychological profile where they're, you know, they've got to get across a lot of technical information, they've got to constantly upskill and um stay across, you know, the treatment regime for every kind of cancer that walks through the door. So it's a lot to ask for them also to be good at empathy, you know. But I I just think it's so it's so important and it makes such a difference, you know, when you feel like um your physician cares about you as an individual. I can give one other example that I thought was pretty striking too when I'd I'd got a um a PSMA PET scan, which some people might be aware is a kind of it's a more sophisticated kind of PET scan, gives a more detailed picture. And I'd I'd heard about this and it was before they were in common use, but I wanted the most detailed information I could get about my diagnosis, and my oncologist was warning me against it. He's saying, you know, some men just light up like a Christmas tree and that picks up all these tiny metastases all through your body, it can be really distressing. I said, Well, I kind of want to know what I'm dealing with. And when the scan came back, my leg had completely cleared up, and I just had one little spot on my rib and no other sign of cancer in my body. And this seemed like really good news. I was pretty stoked, you know, four years in. And the first words out of his mouth were, This doesn't mean you're cured, you know. And I was like, why don't you just can we just not have a little moment here? You know, can't we just celebrate a small win? And at the time I'd found the guy who is now my current oncologist in Melbourne, and I had a telehealth with him afterwards to get a second opinion. And, you know, he popped up on my computer screen, you know, kind of like this in a in a um a kind of you know online video call. And um his face appeared on my computer screen. He had this big smile on his face, and he just looked at my scans and he just went, You've just made my day. You know, if you'd told me that was a scan of a man with metastatic prostate cancer, I wouldn't have believed you. And it's like the same information, the same scan, two very different responses. You know, which one of those do you reckon is better for the patient?

SPEAKER_00 38:16

Yeah, yeah. No, it's almost I wonder, obviously, you could psychoanalyse the old oncologist, but I wonder if that's you know, even to the sense of like he felt like if you get over this, then you no longer need me and then I'm no longer necessary. It's like if if he was coming up from that angle, that is a very contra um contraindicated angle, I guess, or not opposite angle to be looking at it, especially in healthcare where you're meant to be supporting the patient first. But um yeah, super that's super uh that's such a different way to look at it compared to how I would think most people would look at it.

SPEAKER_02 38:54

You know, probably his argument would be, you know, I don't want to give patients false hope. You know, I don't want them looking at a scan and thinking they're out of the woods here, you know, maybe they'll stop taking their medication or whatever. But, you know, I don't I don't really buy it. You know, I think encouraging words, you know, mean a lot, particularly from your oncologist when you when you're going through a really difficult experience. And, you know, those and you know what the second oncologist said to me with those few words, like, you've made my day, told me that I mattered to him. The fact that my good results made his day meant that I was a priority for him, you know? And that yeah, you know, that's what you want when you're putting your life in someone's hands. You and look, it's tough, you know, oncology is a tough, tough profession. And, you know, they talk about compassion fatigue, you know, how can you be emotionally invested in every single patient you see? But I mean, you'd know in your work, you know, if a if a client comes to see you and they know that you're really invested in their well-being and their success, you're gonna get a better outcome, you know, rather than just going through the motions, you know? Yeah. So there's a there's a lot there. And I am sympathetic to the position of oncologists because they they sit in their office all day seeing a procession of patients, 10 or 15 minute intervals, and a lot of them they're not they're not gonna be able to save. And so how how how do they remain emotionally invested in every single patient? It's a big ask, um, which is why I think the allied health stuff is so important too. You know, you pr it's probably unrealistic for expect oncologists to be everything to everyone, but you know, I've discovered the specialist prostate cancer nurses are amazing, you know, and they often have more time to have those more fulsome conversations and people like EPs and you know, seeing a psychologist under a mental health care plan, you know, seeking out a nutritionist, you know, whatever you can do. I think you do have to assemble a bit of a team as much as you can, and that's not always easy. But there are there are great there are some great services too, like the Prostate Cancer Foundation of Australia have telehealth nurses and counsellors. So really good for people in regional and remote areas. They can call up at any time if they're doing it tough, having a bad day, speak to someone. So I think there just there needs to be a much better communication of how people can access those kinds of supports because I'd, you know, I oncologists are time poor and they're not going to be able to do everything for you. But I also think they could do, they could do better as well. Um, and I think they could learn. And there have, you know, there are studies around trying to teach oncologists to be more empathetic. And um, you know, I think that that kind of stuff is really needed too.

SPEAKER_00 41:45

Absolutely. Just um, I guess touching on that subject, but for the sense or perspective of an EP, have you had any sort of similar experiences with an EP?

SPEAKER_02 41:54

I haven't really had a negative experience with an EP, I've got to say. You know, well that's a good sign for our profession, but yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, you know, I think sometimes uh I would like to see, you know, again, we we talk about, you know, some of the work of a guy like um Professor Rob Newton and you know, all the research coming out around exercise. I imagine like any profession, it's gonna be important to really kind of upskill and do professional development because that research is moving so quickly now, you know, like it's gone beyond just quality of life and managing side effects of treatment. There's really good evidence now that exercise can improve prognosis. And so, you know, Rob's talking about sort of precision exercise medicine for, you know, every specific individual. And so developing a a good understanding of, you know, the right loading and the right type of exercise at the right time. I think that's going to be a huge area of learning and training in the years ahead. And, you know, I said somewhere recently, I think it was on LinkedIn, you know, that credible cancer hospitals will have to have a whole fucking army of exercise physiologists and, you know, fully equipped gyms. And, you know, there's really good evidence that exercise while receiving chemotherapy improves the efficacy of chemotherapy and reduces side effects. So I think Rob did a lot of this work at Edith Cow. And so you're on an exercise bike or a treadmill having chemo, you know, and um, you know, my oncologist was sort of raising the prospect of potentially having to have more chemo at some point in the future. And obviously that's not something that wildly excites me, but I thought about and I thought, well, if I've got to have chemo, you've got to get me an exercise bike in the chemo ward, you know, because the science supports it. Why why would you support it, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:47

Exactly. Why wouldn't you? Yeah. You're aware of it. Um, yeah, I think the biggest thing there is probably the awareness and more people being aware and the of the benefit and more pathways, like you said, more accessibility for people. With that, particularly in remote and rural regions. Is there anything, Tim, that EPs or even the broader health profession underestimate when it comes to um I guess, yeah, just living the lived experience of cancer? Is there anything we underestimate?

SPEAKER_02 44:16

Yeah, I mean, I've thought about this a lot over the years, and I think one of the things is the kind of um sort of loss of confidence, you know, when you've been really heavily, heavily kind of medicalized, you know, when you've been in part of the healthcare system for a long period of time, you know, it can really rock your confidence. And, you know, they talk about financial toxicity and time toxicity, like all the things that are required of you as a patient, getting blood tests and scans, and you know, it's hard to keep working, it's hard to maintain relationships, it's hard to maintain sort of socialization. And so I think there's a lot of people suffering in silence. And whoever it is, you know, maybe, you know, if you've got a rapport with a client, you know, just ask them how they're going. You know, it doesn't have to be always be a psychologist. It could be an EP, it could be a specialist nurse, you know, just recognize the individual in front of you and develop some understanding about their circumstances. You know, do they have kids? Are they in a relationship? Do if do they live alone? Are they feeling socially isolated? You know, ask about their mental health. Because as I said, it's it's really easy to fall into a bit of a hole and um it can be really tough to climb out, and then it can be really tough to reach out for help, you know, when you find yourself in a bit of a dark place. And I think it it's it's important that anyone within the healthcare system is sort of, I guess, just mindful of psychological distress among their patients.

SPEAKER_01 45:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 45:51

Um and looking for those signs or opening up conversations and then maybe being able to encourage them or refer them on to a you know, the relative, um the relevant um healthcare professional.

SPEAKER_00 46:05

And it is hard to do that as well, sort of, but in it is hard to do that, I imagine, even more so when you only have, say, 15 minutes of of time. It's yeah, certainly uh harder to get an understanding. But yeah.

SPEAKER_02 46:16

Yeah, yeah. I mean, again, you know, the oncologists are gonna have a tough time playing that counsellor role to every patient who walks through the door. But some somewhere within the system, there needs to be that sort of, I guess, psychological monitoring, you know, and just an awareness of any telltale signs that someone's doing it tough. Because I think a lot of blokes in particular find it hard to speak up. And, you know, we're sort of taught to be stoic and just push on. You know, in my observation, I think women are a lot better at putting support systems in place and speaking to their friends and um, you know, their loved ones. Um, a lot of blokes I think do suffer in silence and find it hard to be vulnerable and speak up. And that's that's been a bit of a focus of mine too, to try and initiate those sort of vulnerable conversations.

SPEAKER_00 47:05

Is there a way that you go about doing that or opening that up?

SPEAKER_02 47:09

I mean, it depends on the context and the setting. You know, you mentioned I run this um book group or reading group at Peter McCallum, and that you could consider that a form of, you know, what they call social prescribing. So, and it's also because I have a cancer diagnosis myself, it's also a form of peer support. So, you know, I can sit in a room with a group of people and we're talking about a book, but it's so much more than just discussing a book. You know, it's it's socialization, it opens up avenues for conversations about how people are getting along in their own lives. I've found that incredibly beneficial, both for myself as the facilitator, but the people in the groups seem to really get a lot out of it. And so I think we could get creative about more of that kind of you know, people talk about socials prescribing, green prescribing, getting into nature, you know, that sort of thing.

SPEAKER_00 47:58

Honestly, I'm I'm loving everything you're saying. And that brings brings me back to a an experience that I had at the Essa conference a couple of weeks ago. One of the one of the seminars that I attended, it was all about yarning and the power, the power of yarning. And what it was is we all got into a yarn circle. I think I think this is like a tradition inside of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander groups, or at least some of them, where they uh sit in a circle and they have like this piece of of wool or or string and they're tying it around to do some sort of knitting thing, but it it's not about the actual knitting itself, it's about being in the circle and talking and you know opening up conversations, but I guess focusing on something having something to do while you're doing that, such as you mentioned the uh book as well.

SPEAKER_02 48:46

Um yeah, Peter Peter McCallum are pretty progressive with this stuff. They have a men's shed too at Peter McCallum because they they understand that blokes often they do like to be doing something while they have a chat. You know, they say women are much better at sort of front-on conversations, you know, over a coffee and and blokes tend to like watch sport and do sort of side to side talking, you know, or at a bar, you know, or whatever it might be. Uh and so, you know, just having that awareness of what people might need to open up, you know, whether it be a men's shed or a book group, or um yeah, I've started a men's group in my local community and uh not just for blokes with cancer, just a bunch of blokes who I enjoy spending time with. And it's been really beneficial for everyone, whether it's relationships or parenting dilemmas or career conundrums. Think I think men in particular need to need to get better at creating um, you know, those support systems for themselves, what whatever their health status.

SPEAKER_00 49:49

That's a very good point. And yeah, to go back to what you mentioned around sort of like progressive prescription, like you said, it's sometimes it's not just about looking at, you know, oh, this person needs to exercise more. It might also be, and this is something that I I utilize in my own my own work is okay, this person actually needs more meaningful interactions in a local community. Okay, go see the local community center, they have some programs that you can get involved in. Oh, they have a music programme, you said you liked music. See if you can uh start doing something like that. And you mentioned around the nature side of things, okay. I need to spend more time out in nature. I'm not sure how you'd assess that, but yeah, yeah. I'm sure all those things are positive.

SPEAKER_02 50:29

Yeah, it's not gonna do anyone any harm, you know, if there's a local bushwalking group or there's an a amazing, you know, sort of community organizations all over the place. And I think a lot of the times it's about trying to make those connections. We have a an urban um farm in Brunswick called Ceres, and you know, just going and digging in the dirt and planting some veggies and learning how to grow food is a really healthy thing to do. They were running a course on therapeutic gardening, which I thought was a fantastic idea. Peter Mack run art therapy and meditation classes, and you know, they had a a classical music ensemble playing at the well-being center one day, and you can, you know, go along in your cancer hospital not for treatment or to see a doctor, but just to listen to some classical music. So I I just love the ways we could get creative about this holistic understanding of human health.

SPEAKER_00 51:22

Yeah, absolutely. And for for I guess for EPs listening, I I hope yeah, uh most EPs are already already sort of doing this in the sense of getting involved in the local community. Because I think, yeah, like you sort of mentioned, Tim, and I think we're both pretty big advocates for is um community is really powerful and um yeah, not just for social connections and um meaningful relationships, but also for, you know, potentially influencing us in positive ways as well. You know, of course that's part of the reason people may join a gym is to be surrounded by people that already have the habits and behaviors that they want to instill upon themselves. Um so yeah, I I hope uh most people are already already doing that. Yeah. When you when you look at uh when you look at the communication that those sorts of EPs or any other health professionals use to sort of build that sense of community belonging and more importantly, trust, what sticks out to you as being then like the key elements of okay, I know I can trust this person or I I know they understand where I'm coming from. So what are those sort of examples there that they've come across?

SPEAKER_02 52:30

Oh look, I mean, the experiences I had at UQ in the exercise clinic, and I also went to UQ for the clinical trial for exercise. The EPs I worked with were, you know, these are fourth year EP students, so they're they're really enthusiastic, you know. They're kind of chafing at the bit to get out into the world and and ply their trade. Um and that they were just such positive people and it was such good energy to be around, you know, these really fit, young, keen, enthusiastic people. And they were just like they were kind of like a bit of a cheer squad, you know. Like I'm a middle-aged bloke, just trying to keep it together. And I don't know, when I'd I'd sort of do well in one of the tests, you know, you're on the exercise bike with, I mean, I don't know all the correct terminology, but you know, you've got the the tube in your mouth and electrodes all over your body, and you know, they're measuring your, I can't even remember what it's called.

SPEAKER_01 53:25

Your VS Max.

SPEAKER_02 53:26

Yeah, yeah, that sort of thing. And they're just they're that pumped for you, you know, when you get a good result. And, you know, there were times, and I think I write about this in the book, you know, rather than feeling like a cancer patient, you can start to sort of kid yourself you're some sort of elite athlete, you know, working with these sport scientists, and it just boosts your spirits, you know. And I I would walk out of there feeling, you know, 10 feet tall and bulletproof. It was really terrific.

SPEAKER_00 53:52

Yeah, no, that's awesome. Positive experiences all around.

SPEAKER_02 53:56

Yeah, 100%. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:58

Is there anything else you want to add on that note?

SPEAKER_02 54:01

I mean, look, there's so much we could talk about. I guess, you know, as a writer, you know, one of my go-tos is is has been writing therapy as a way of processing my experience. And I guess it's another one of those allied health tools that I think could be really helpful for people. And I I did my creative writing PhD with a research focus on both writing therapy and bibliotherapy, which is therapeutic reading. And so, yeah, I'm being able to sort of use that research now in the book group and I run writing therapy workshops and I get amazing, I get amazing feedback from the participants because if you're going through a traumatic event and it doesn't have to be a cancer diagnosis, that you know, there are we all deal with lots of different challenges in life. When you develop the tools to kind of write about it, there's some really compelling research to show how beneficial that is, just to kind of write it, write it. And um, yeah, I mean, that's how my book started as personal writing therapy. And it's amazing the difference it makes just doing some kind of free writing, not really thinking about what you're writing. You know, if anyone's done any journaling or ever kept a diary, you know, you might have that experience where you're moving a pen across the page and you actually sort of surprise yourself what comes at the end of your pen. You know, it's not until you do sit down to write that you discover that what maybe what you've been thinking or what has might have come up through your subconscious or unconscious. Um, so I'm a big fan of that sort of work. I love running those workshops and I've had really, really enthusiastic feedback from participants.

SPEAKER_00 55:33

Yeah, that's that's that's really interesting, particularly around the evidence around that. What sort of um instances have they utilized it? And you mentioned obviously therapy is the main one that you've um recognized or or worked with. Have they seen it in other instances outside of that? More like, I'm not sure, maybe even an opposite of the spectrum, like uh like a performance um side of things as well.

SPEAKER_02 55:57

Yeah, I haven't I haven't seen it in the context of sort of enhancing performance. I have there's lots of studies, you know, dealing with people suffering from depression or anxiety or social isolation. And writing therapy has been shown to be pretty effective in kind of shifting those really difficult emotions. And there's a pretty well-established method where you can encourage people to write about whatever their issue might be, but in the first instance, write about it like as fiction in the third person. So you're not writing as yourself and writing exactly what you've been through. You're actually writing it like a story about someone else, and you can completely control the narrative. And there's one study I was looking at, and they say that you know, participants feel like you sort of go from feeling like a puppet where life is just kind of pulling your strings and you're at the mercy and the whims of life, to feeling like the puppet master and you can control the narrative. And so being able to frame your narrative journey in the ways that you want can be really empowering. And there's there's a lot of writing and research around a concept called the hero's journey, which is kind of the template of most of the great stories through human history, you know, that as our hero embarks on some sort of quest and they overcome all these kind of obstacles to in pursuit of whatever their desire might be. And um, I think, you know, when you can look at your own life as a bit of a hero's journey and adopt some of those narrative tools to try and write your own story, that can be really empowering. And I've had really, really great experiences in workshops with people who have felt like they've been able to work through a lot of grief and trauma in that way.

SPEAKER_00 57:43

Yeah, awesome. Um, two follow-up questions from that uh tips. One for people that want to be able to maybe they can't get down to a workshop or they want to start to facilitate that, they think that's a fantastic um thing in the knock. Okay, when can I start doing that? How do people go about even just starting that? Because, you know, for some people it might be completely fine, like journaling, yeah, yeah. Doing any sort of sort of writing therapy, like you mentioned. How do they go about starting it? And um, secondly, how often should they be doing it?

SPEAKER_02 58:11

Yeah, there's a terrific book called The Artist's Way by a woman named Julia Cameron, and and that was the book that really turned me on to the power of what she calls free writing or morning pages. So when I got my cancer diagnosis, I'd wake up most mornings and I'd sit down on the couch with a cup of coffee and I'd just start moving a pen across the page, just free writing or journaling. Some people call it spontaneous writing or automatic writing. And it was just a way of just kind of letting your thoughts spill out at the start of the day, kind of like doing a morning meditation or some morning stretches. And it just shifts things, you know, rather than things kind of just getting stuck in your mind and ruminating on something, when you can sort of get it down in black and white and you can sort of read it over, it sort of seems to make it less scary than just having ideas running around in your head and just, you know, doing head miles as it's sometimes called, you know. So morning pages or free writing, The Artist's Way by Julia Cameron's a really good book to get you kick started on that. There's no real right or wrong way to do it. Just give it a go, you know, try moving your pen across the page and see what comes out, and you might surprise yourself.

SPEAKER_00 59:23

Beautiful. And these workshops, whatabouts and whereabouts do you host them?

SPEAKER_02 59:26

Oh, look, I've done a series of workshops through the Byron Writers Festival in northern New South Wales. And I'm hoping to set some up in Melbourne. I haven't as yet. I've sort of, you know, I moved down here about 10 months ago, and it's been a big process relocating and sort of just orienting myself in a new city. But that's something I'd like to set up because yeah, people do seem to get so much from it. A lot of different writers' centres, you know, a lot of um the major cities have some sort of writer's center, and among their offering of workshops, you might find someone doing writing therapy workshops. And there's probably some online ones available too. But in essence, you know, you just want to you try and get in the routine of doing those morning pages and just feel your way with it. You know, you only have to do five or ten minutes at the start of the day. It can be a really nice way to kick start your day and just, you know, find if those difficult emotions, you can just allow them to move through rather than just kind of getting stuck. That's really helped me. And free writing is one way to do that.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:28

Yeah, everyone talks about morning, morning routines, and you've got to have this, this, and this, and this to optimize your routine. Yeah. But yeah, I know I I I I do agree. Like I f I found myself, um, just thinking of my own experience with writing, I found myself from time to time just feeling like I've unloaded uh like a whole heap of burden from my shoulders just by simply writing down some of the things that I have on my mind. So they're not all stuck in the maybe I do that more at the end of the day, but regardless, uh, it's certainly therapeutic like you said.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:00

Yeah, and I think people can find when is their optimum time of day for some people to be mornings, you know, just where you can just sort of set aside some quiet time. And, you know, it might just be, you know, a a discovery of something that you didn't realize you were feeling or thinking that sort of unlocks um sense of you know having been freed or unburdened of something.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:23

Interesting. Before we before we wrap up, Tim, yeah, we have a bit of a closing tradition on this podcast. I'm gonna I'm gonna put a bit of a spin on it though, uh just simply because it's normally famed for EPs, and I'm gonna fame it slightly differently for you.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:36

Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:39

I'm taking time to think about the answer. There's no rush. Yeah. It is a little bit of a general question or a value question. What's one topic or issue you think health professionals in the oncology space should be talking about more openly with each other?

SPEAKER_02 1:01:53

Yeah, look, two things come to mind. One is oncologists and and medical fraternity in general. I think they need to speak more openly about their own mental health because there's a lot of research to show that doctors and oncologists in particular have a pretty poor mental health profile. There's a lot of research on this. And what I found most shocking was they're also less likely to seek help than the general population. So you'd expect if a if a doctor or oncologist is having mental health issues that they're part of the health system, of course they go and seek help. But a lot of these people are really high achievers, they're perhaps perfectionists, they might see it as a bit of a blot on their sort of career that they're struggling. So I think, you know, doctors and oncologists in particular need to be a bit more open about discussing their own mental health. And then I think with their patients, particularly men with prostate cancer on hormone therapy, conversations around sexuality and intimacy and masculinity are really important. You know, the effects of hormone therapy are really debilitating and uh emasculating, and they're difficult conversations, I think, for male patients in particular to initiate. And, you know, someone needs to raise it early on because there are tools and strategies to help tackle some of those side effects of hormone therapy, but the sooner you adopt them, you know, the better chance of a good outcome. So I think oncologists need to be able to be prepared to have those slightly awkward or uncomfortable conversations and at least initiate them and then refer, you know, someone on to a men's sexual health specialist because you know, being able to maintain intimate relationships and that kind of thing is super important, I think, going through an experience like that.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:43

No, absolutely. Two two takeaways I got from that were firstly, practice what you preach if in EEPs we exercise. Well, hopefully.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:53

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:55

And what are you doing if you're uh an EP and you're and you don't exercise uh uh excuse me. No, uh a second one, it sounded like have hard conversations.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:04

Yeah, yeah. And you know, what I found through I guess the sort of advocacy work I've sort of stumbled into, you know, not not by design, it was no sort of strategic plan, but I sort of found myself stumbling into this role is when you make yourself vulnerable and you're prepared to be vulnerable, it gives other people permission to be vulnerable. And I've found, you know, people say, Oh, men aren't good at this stuff, but they're just waiting for someone to initiate the conversation. And so when I open up those sorts of conversations, it's just like men have just been waiting for this opening, you know. And then I, you know, I have I've had spoken at libraries and men's sheds and writers' festivals, I've had men crying in my arms, and you know, it's been really powerful and we need a lot more of it, you know. I think we're we're a better society and we're a safer, healthier society when men are allowed to be vulnerable.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:56

Yeah, amen to that.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:58

Tim, if people want to get in contact with you, if they want to find you, where's the best place?

SPEAKER_02 1:05:02

Well, um, like yourself, I'm like, you found me on LinkedIn, I'm on LinkedIn. It's Dr. Tim Baker now that I've got a PhD. Um, I've got a website, bytimbaker.com. I mean, you can Google me. I've got a pretty big sort of digital footprint. I've done a lot of media since the book came out in 2022. Yeah, there's a lot of stuff there that might be helpful to patients or anyone going through a difficult time. Can't help but plug the book, Patting the Shark. I get a lot four years on, I still get messages most weeks from someone telling me how much it's helped them. So yeah, I I think if you Google Tim Baker writer, you'd you'll find a whole lot of media that I've done. There's an episode of Australian Story that came out um last year that I got a lot of really great feedback from. So yeah, I've ended up doing way more sort of media and public speaking than I ever imagined. And, you know, I think I do it because hopefully it'll help someone and touch their lives for the better.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:00

Yeah. No, I I really appreciate you coming on Tim. And I could just like I wasn't sure what to expect obviously prior to coming on, but um you're super modest considering all the work that you've done in the space and just that that selfless want to be able to help people is shows through and through. So yeah, uh once again I just really want to want to thank you for coming on and sharing um your experience with this. And I'm hope I I know that um there'll be people that take a lot of value away from this episode. So I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:28

Yeah, pleasure, mate. Thanks, Lena. Thanks for the opportunity.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:31

Thank you.