Bridging Research and Practice in Exercise Science: Insights from Vince Kelly

In this episode, Vince Kelly shares his extensive experience in elite sport, academia, and high-performance environments. We explore how research translates into practice, leadership in sports science, and strategies for professional development and mentorship.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome back to the Successful EP, the podcast where we talk to leading exercise physiologists and health professionals about building successful, impactful careers, running thriving businesses, and advancing the profession of exercise science. I'm your host, Lenny Hazewood, founder and exercise of Adapt Movement Physiology and Growth Specialist at EPCBD. On this show, we dive into stories, strategies, and lessons from EPs and health professionals doing exceptional work and spark conversations that EPs should be having and often aren't. Today's guest brings a rare blend of academic expertise and real-world high performance experience. Currently an associate professor at Queensland University of Technology, he specializes in strength conditioning and sports science with over 90 peer-reviewed publications, multiple book chapters, and more than$2 million in research funding. Their work focuses on bridging the gap between research and real-world application. Alongside this, they've spent over 20 years working in elite sport across professional rugby and Olympic pathways, including roles with the Brisbane Broncos and Queensland Academy of Sport, contributing to environments that have produced Commonwealth and Olympic medalists. They've also played a key role in shaping the profession through leadership with Exercise and Sport Science Australia, and including serving as chair of the Accreditation Council. In this episode, you'll learn how to better translate research into practice, what drives high performance environments, and how to think more strategically about your role as an EP within the broader profession. Vince Kelly, welcome to the podcast.

SPEAKER_02 1:28

Thanks for having me, Lenny.

SPEAKER_00 1:30

Like we were sort of discussing before, it was great to see you at the uh ESA conference earlier and recap around some of those important events and and how important it is to be bringing the profession together and advancing it as a whole.

SPEAKER_02 1:42

Yeah, and as you said, you know, we are I asked you what your favorite thing was, and you know, one of those was networking. And I sometimes I think we underestimate the value of that. And when we're thinking about going to these conferences, we just think about, oh, we've got to get our CPD points, but we don't think about the actual connections we can make and how they might benefit us in the future too.

SPEAKER_00 2:02

Absolutely. Now, obviously, I had you at our university as a tutor, and I was really privileged to have that. And uh I've seen you a few times, of course, um, when you've been hosting the this uh spring symposium. For those listening, I'd I'd love to delve into a bit of your key career moments and um how they sort of shaped your philosophy around research, high performance, and um in particular leadership. So uh yeah, let's let's delve in some some pivoting points throughout your very extensive career.

SPEAKER_02 2:32

Yeah, sure. Um probably an initial point, I guess, when I was trying to establish myself in high performance sport. Something that I realized is that I was never going to be an elite athlete. So, but I wanted to work in sport. And one of the challenges I faced is that elite athletes were getting jobs that practitioners wanted and they didn't have many qualifications. And so I had to differentiate myself from those athletes who were getting the jobs. Um and I did that through what we called at the time evidence-based practice. You know, people would say, What's your training philosophy or what's your coaching philosophy? And it was evidence-based practice and using science to inform the programs, and we now hear it as evidence-informed practice, it's very much a similar thing. But that's what I wanted to do, differentiate myself for say, you know, um, we're we're writing these programs or implementing these systems based on evidence rather than than just hearsay. Sometimes some people call it folk pedagogy, that you know, just you do what you've done in the past. So that was probably one of the the key differentiators I felt for myself as a practitioner. And then when I moved into academia, I think a bit of a light bulb moment was, hey, I'm not really applying this research, or I wasn't really applying the research as well as I I could have been or should have been when I was in, when I was in that that high performance field. And and I guess my light bulb moment there is to educate practitioners about, you know, what is science 101 in reliability and validity and using that new technologies and what we should be thinking about in our decision making. And then probably my third, I guess, pivotal moment was what we referred to as the darkest day in sport when um we had the the Stephen Dank peptides doping. You know, they called it a supplementation. It was it wasn't a supplementation system, it was an injecting system. And that changed the face of, I guess, accreditation for sport scientists and hopefully for the better. And that's where I um said, look, I've got to get involved in ESSER because I want our industry to be protected from these types of people. So they're probably the three, I guess, things that I I would reflect on to say um have had an influence on my career over time.

SPEAKER_00 4:49

But I guess exploring that a little bit further, uh starting with I guess more of the elite sport, how has that background shaped how you view the profession exercise science and sport science first broadly? And then I guess where do you sort of see from from your point of view with that high performance background, what are the key sort of bottlenecks in our profession?

SPEAKER_02 5:13

Yeah, um, well, and and you may remember as an undergrad that I said this, but I I always say that specifically, and I'm at QUT, the University for the Real World, is that we do have some academics in the field, and they're very good academics, but they've never in the academic system, but they've never actually worked in the field. So I I actually and I continued to practice for a long, long time, even when I was back in or moved into academia. So I feel it's really important that if we're going to be working with practitioners who are doing applied work, that we have an understanding of that application. And so that's where I've always felt one of my strengths as a teacher at university or teaching students is being able to apply my learnings to the next generation. So, and then I think, you know, in terms of uh perhaps some bottlenecks, if I, you know, my area is sports science and and I think we still lack a real understanding of what a sports scientist does. Even within our own industry, people don't know the difference between an AEP and a sport scientist, and or or more importantly, they don't know the difference between um um an accredited exercise scientist and a sports scientist. And they they think it's the same thing and they're um widely different skills, and and there's a lot more within sports science that people um uh don't necessarily know about. So it's my goal to continually push that barrow to say, yeah, you you're not just uh um um a sports an exercise scientist with a little bit of expertise, you actually got a lot more knowledge on top of what uh um an exercise scientist would have.

SPEAKER_00 6:50

Yeah, adding to that as well, there was a I think there was a video that came out recently via Nine News where they interviewed um Katie Linden and Exercise Sports Science Australia. And I remember the interviewer uh was referencing uh the exercise physiologist as an exercise scientist. So there's still there, there's definitely still some work to be done in distinguishing that.

SPEAKER_02 7:15

Yeah, and and that that same reporter said sports scientists. They use the term sport scientists, and I think that's just an opportunity for us to say, hey, they got that wrong. Here's the difference between them. But it's an opportunity to build all three professions rather than then argue about which one they should have been using. It's like, yeah, hey, they're on national news, let's build the whole uh field up.

SPEAKER_00 7:38

Yeah, for sure. Giving a bit more of a deeper view into your your experience and extensive history, like we I mentioned a few of those things before with obviously 20 years working in elite elite sport across a number of different pathways and then bridging that into academia. What initially prompted you to go into the academia um side of things and yeah, just go so deeply into that? And um also I'm curious around as a bit of a follow-up note from that, what that uh research funding was particularly for. Was it in the in the sports science or was it in something else? But um Yeah, let's so you just start with um yeah, uh, what prompted you to get into academia?

SPEAKER_02 8:18

Yeah. Um a couple of things. So I'd always wanted to do a PhD. Um, and uh when I studied, you could do a one-year honours um after your degree. Um, and if you were uh successful and got a high enough grade in that you were eligible for a PhD. Mine was a four-year undergrad plus a year of honours, so by the time I'd done five years, I'd had enough and I wasn't I wasn't uh willing to go and do four more years of study. So um I wanted to go and you know experience the real world. But having that qualification, that honest qualification meant that I was eligible. I'm should I um apply for a PhD later on. So that was one thing, you know, um I was always inquisitive and asking questions and wanted to continue to research. The other thing is that the I'd been through some instability in in elite sport. You know, the nature of the when you're at the top level is that your contracts are short, two to three years, and and you need to find a new contract each period. And despite I what I felt I was doing a good job at the time, the club I was working with sort of held off and held off, and I'd had some young kids, and I was like, yeah, I've been doing this for sort of 15 years now, maybe it's time to settle down a bit. And the the other part of it was to give back. We talk about Simon Sinek and his why, and and my why was in elite sport was helping athletes become better. And then I was like, well, it's probably actually just helping people become better, and that's what I aspire to do is help help undergrads or postgrads, whichever students I'm working with, become better and and be the next generation in in our field. The second part you're asking about research money. A lot of the research funding I've received is around ped embedded PhD. So we sort of have a pathway within our system where some students can do a postgraduate coursework master's, for example, where I feel they get a better opportunity if they're able to to do an embedded PhD where they get a higher qualification. They embed themselves in a sporting organization over a three or four year period, and they gain skill sets within that environment that that they wouldn't be able to get, you know, just as a practicum student, for example. And in addition to that, they understand what sport science is all about and how to answer research questions and then how to apply them in the real world. So I would say the majority of my research funding is around that. I have received some funding around new equipment, for example, so new technologies and then um applying them in a sporting setting and seeing how they might compare to other interventions, but essentially the majority has been around embedding those students into high performance sport environments.

SPEAKER_00 11:07

Yeah, great. And of course, as good as technology is, it's only as good as the person that uses it. So in that context, if you're developing people, there seems to be a lot more leverage there.

SPEAKER_02 11:19

Yeah, 100%.

SPEAKER_00 11:20

Is there anything else that you say is any sort of gaps between the research and day-to-day application, whether that's in exercise physiology, exercise science, sport science, et cetera?

SPEAKER_02 11:31

Yeah, I see the key gap being the implementation. It's it's a and it's a two-way gap. I think both both parties are guilty. I think the researchers are guilty in not being able to apply or uh demonstrate how their findings can be applied. And then I think it's the practitioners having an understanding of how to apply the research. So I think we both can, you know, in terms of researchers and practitioners, work on that to get a better understanding of okay, here's the research and here's how it works in in the in the real world. And and you might remember at at some of the sessions that we've had at the Spring Symposium, that's exactly what we try to do is have a researcher present the research and then say, here's a practitioner who's actually living and breathing that research and how they've applied it in their environment. And I think that is quite engaging for a practitioner just to sort of initially see the research and go, oh wow, that's high-level research, but how would I use it? But then to actually see someone and say, okay, yeah, that makes sense. I think that that is a nice mix. We have these a lot of academic conferences call themselves research to practice, but a lot of it's research and not much practice.

SPEAKER_00 12:45

So Yeah, I I would argue it's not just um a nice mix. Yeah, hopefully it's becomes essential in terms of how research is presented. Yeah, I really I really think the symposiums that you do, I think I've attended uh the tw last two years, um they've all been very valuable in terms of yeah, not only taking that high higher level of research, but then yeah, like you said, seeing it in in real-world application is you get a sense of um value immediately and um you can see exactly how you can apply it to your your clients or your athletes or your patients.

SPEAKER_02 13:18

Yeah, and and when I'm recruiting speakers, I tell it I tell them what I'm gonna tell the audience, and you've been there and heard me say it, is I tell them, give them an idea that they could use it the next day, the next week, the next month, the next year. And then at the start of the day, I say to the the audience, think about what you're gonna use the next day, the next week, the next month, the next year. So both parties, I guess, are coming in with that mindset of, okay, what am I gonna take out of it? And that's probably a reflection when I've come away from conferences and someone said, Oh, how was it? You kind of go, Okay. And then they say, Is there anything you can use from it? And you go, I'm not sure. And so that's a reflection of like, you want to you you spend a lot of money, you spend a lot of time, you want to actually have that time as an investment that you actually gain some skills.

SPEAKER_00 14:04

So at a at a systems or an education level, Vince, as much as I think the symposium is uh Spring Symposium is very valuable, we host it or you host it uh once a year, and it's at QT, potentially not everyone's able to attend. How do you see that level of change with research into implementation being influenced at a systems or education level for the profession?

SPEAKER_02 14:28

That's a good question. We talk about this on the accreditation council. Um, and uh we go all the way through to I'll use the example of perhaps some ethics cases. I can't give details of the ethics cases that we see, but as an example of someone who may do have done something wrong, um uh our follow-up uh is well, how do we prevent this from happening again? And certainly some one of the key things that's um come up has been the use of case studies. So using these examples of case studies that we then go back to university and say to students, okay, here's an example of, you know, where someone's done something wrong. What would you do in this scenario? Or what have what do you see that they've done wrong as an example. I also heard at the conference an example of some studies that we haven't dealt with at accreditation council, but the in wider practice where you know there's been some pre practitioners doing the wrong thing, and some academic staff has actually bought some solicitors into their the university uh to uh essentially say, this is what the case looks like in court, and um uh and and and the questions that might be asked. And and and simple things, you know, I don't know if you remember, but I say it every year, you know, the challenge of of getting the um the pre-participant screening completed, you know, 200 second-year students, they think, oh, this doesn't actually mean much. But when you say to them, I could be on the front page or the university could be on the front page of the paper because someone's had an incident because they didn't I didn't get them to complete the form. I think sometimes those case studies are are really strong in providing evidence for the students.

SPEAKER_00 16:18

Yeah, no, I I I I think everyone can sort of relate to some degree, or it encourages it encourages problem solving skills in a sense to have those case studies to see how you can apply those sorts of things into practice.

SPEAKER_02 16:31

Yeah, and I think that that term that you use there, I think that's really good. I you know, you know, problem solving or critical thinking, I I think that's that's the real key. You know, information's everywhere. We can get information everywhere, but how do we get people to think critically about some of the problems that we see and the positives or negatives of going in uh one direction or or another? So I've I certainly think, yeah, getting people thinking critically is a key part of of building that ski skill set.

SPEAKER_00 17:02

Yeah, absolutely. And and I think on that note, like I'm gonna prompt, I'm gonna prompt a little bit deeper. But if uh if it's something that, you know, still needs to be and it might still need to be flushed out, to be honest, um, to be thought of and applied. But if there was a sort of framework to follow when it came to upskilling or improving practitioners' critical thinking skills, what might that framework look like? And and as an example, you you mentioned one of the elements there, which was around the case studies. Would there be any other elements that you think would be appropriate or relevant?

SPEAKER_02 17:34

Yeah, so I I would see if I had to put a framework together, whether it was a a triangle or an upside-down triangle, I think we need the foundational knowledge. So that's the that's the base of the triangle. And that's that's where ESSA stands ahead of other organizations at that the basis of being an ESSER accredited practitioner is that you are university qualified. So, and we had discussion, discussion with the board over the week the previous week, and the the term that came up was it's really the science of exercise. So I think, you know, people say, well, you know, what's the difference between an AES and a personal trainer? It's the science of exercise that they've learnt over three years compared to a short cert three or cert four. So I think that's the basis of the framework. I think the second one is real-world scenarios. So that that case study scenario, you did it as an undergraduate, that you know, you hadn't had a client early on as an AES, and then you you would have then gone and done your practicum hours, and that's um, you know, standard across all ESSO accredited pathways, that we have these real-world scenarios. And then I think the top of it is mentorship. And I think that's that's where we get this opportunity to really learn from other professionals or senior practitioners, let's say that. I guess more of the implementation of some of those scenarios, or you might experience someone practicum once or twice and they've experienced it 300 times. So they can give you lots of different ways that they've dealt with the same problem. And certainly that's something we're looking at with the accreditation council as well, is building up practicum supervisor skill sets so that that mentorship part gets stronger. And, you know, we've got a growing workforce. We need to grow our mentorship skills along with that workforce on the way. So, yeah, base of foundation, some real-world scenarios, and then good mentors to help us uh when we're uh when we're developing.

SPEAKER_00 19:40

No, that sounds very logical to me. On that, or just a one little bit deeper on that as well. Is do you think you mentioned around the practicum supervisors, that would apply, of course, in university and placement. Do you think we need more mentors for the first EPs out or EPs, ex science, A um AES, ASS outside of uni? So more mentors in the field for early career EPs, ex science, sports science.

SPEAKER_02 20:06

Yeah, I think we need them uh because it's it's we're we're always learning. So um we we need to have um good mentors and and sometimes I think it's valuable to have a mentor that's not your boss. I mean, we do you you see your direct line man manager will hopefully, if they're uh got some good leadership skills, should be um a good mentor. But it's actually good to have someone else to say, you know, um, I've got I'm I have an issue dealing with my boss, and you can talk to them uh about that as an example. So yeah, uh, and I think it's not just the early career. We see people who are getting sort of to the seven-year itch in their practice. Um, and we're seeing some um uh numbers of practitioners moving out of the industry, and it's like, why are why is that happening? And it might be business related. You know, we see people progress from maybe a practitioner within a practice, and then they might go to owning their practice, and so they need, you know, business mentor skills, which we just can't fit in a unit diversity degree, but um, we can certainly provide some mentorship for those, you know, mid-career uh practitioners as well.

SPEAKER_00 21:18

I'd be interested to see what what that may look like in in the future in terms of whether there's a a system put in place to to help that or there's a website with potential mentors that have said, Hey, I'm I'm willing to do this for the profession. Interesting.

SPEAKER_02 21:33

Yeah, well, ESSA does have a mentor program. Um, and uh sometimes it's a case of you know, people ticking the box when they renew their membership that they say, I'm willing to be a mentor and have my details available within that. And there are some ESSER staff that that's their remit is to sort of support that mentor program as well and try to match people up appropriately.

SPEAKER_00 21:57

Yeah, okay. Sort of uh tying into that a little bit. Um, on term in terms of the system side of things, but and then moving more into the high performance environments. Because I think uh for any anyone in the profession, we can sort of look at the top people performing and perhaps learn hopefully learn a few things. From your time working in in high performance teams and high performance environments, what have you seen as be one of the differentiators or multiple differentiators between teams that perform well and systems that perform well versus those that don't? Yep.

SPEAKER_02 22:30

Um if I was to put it simply, good leaders. If they've got a good leader, then that will definitely make a difference. I think having um some consistency in terms of working towards a goal. I think if everyone's, you know, it's a bit of a cliche, but if everyone's on the bus, I think definitely we see better outcomes. And, you know, I mentioned it to you. One of the reasons I got out of that that industry was the instability of it. And I certainly see when teams, performance teams have had some stability for a long period of time, they're definitely more successful because people aren't looking for the next gig or the next big thing, or they're actually comfortable in their position that that they're they're in and they know they're supported by their high performance manager, they might not yet aspire to take over their role. Um, uh, and they work towards that common goal. The other thing I think, which is pointed out to me once, was having some different people in your environment. So having some differences of opinion. So if everyone has similar philosophies, you can tend to perhaps not be as broad as you possibly can. So, you know, having the guts to hire someone that you kind of go, oh, they're a bit confronting, but they're actually going to challenge us um and make us better. Um, and then the other thing that I think high performance does really well that we don't see as much, certainly it was a big change when I went from high performance to academia. Um, and and um I'm not sure what it's like in the um in a in a practice space, but something for people to consider is celebrating the wins and commiserating the losses. So in a high performance environment when you're competing every week, if you win, you celebrate all the things that you did that week. If you lose, you reflect, you probably commiserate, and then you pull, pull everyone together and say, you know, okay, what do we need to do to be better? And I think that's where we're probably not as good when we don't have a particular outcome on a regular basis, that we, you know, like what did what do people do? What do practitioners do when they don't need to see their client anymore because they've achieved the outcome for them? You know, do they actually celebrate it? Or if they've had a client that hasn't hasn't returned for whatever reason, and they've whether they've found out or not that they've left because they weren't getting the outcomes, have you actually pulled together, reviewed that and say, okay, how could we do that that better? And so I think that it's the nature of high performance that you have regular competition, but by doing that, you have this constant review process, whether it's from a good thing or a bad thing, but you are you're constantly looking to improve.

SPEAKER_00 25:17

Yeah, that's no, that's a really good point. Um, and I like how you you transferred that into uh a practice setting as well. It's I just thinking of my own personal circumstance as there I think all too often we can certainly try to reflect and review why potentially a client or patient may have left. Like I know I do sort of a bit of a discharge to get a bit of a bit of feedback, but it's not very often we would yeah, celebrate a win when a when a client leaves. Yeah, so that that's a that's a really good point. Maybe perhaps that's also something that may increase uh retention rates in in the profession.

SPEAKER_02 25:53

Yeah, definitely. And and I've heard practitioners and I used to say it to athletes when I was working with individual athletes to say, Well, my job is is to get to a point where you don't need me anymore. You know, that you know yourself and your training that well. That um and and I have had some athletes who probably could have written their own program by the end of nine years with me, but they probably really didn't need me. Um but I was able to give them more choice. And I think it's the same with practitioners, you know, you're trying to get people healthy again. So um uh and I think it is good for your long-term practice that those healthy clients go away and tell some other people and and then that's how you get referrals.

SPEAKER_00 26:34

Yeah, no, from a business point of view it makes sense, and from a uh profession point of view, it also makes sense. For sure. Yeah, no, I think, yeah, we definitely seem to be more critical uh than we uh about the negatives than we are appraisal about the positives.

SPEAKER_02 26:50

Yeah, and and even just from, you know, you see a new client and you're you're on your best behavior because you're like, oh, it's a new client, I've got to do everything right to keep them. What if you had that same enthusiasm when it's like, okay, I've helped them, I've made them healthy, let's celebrate it, and then they can go and tell the next person.

SPEAKER_00 27:08

That's a good point. You mentioned before, like obviously you have uh an extensive level of um experience in that high performance environment, in academia research, working with clients one-on-one. A lot of people wouldn't have that collective skill set together. And just one thing that you mentioned before around, you know, having an athlete that you've worked with for nine years, like I don't imagine there'll be too many people that can say they worked with a client or a patient for nine years consecutive. Hopefully not. Um what what may uh well firstly, like um what what's uh been some, apart from just doing a body good job, what have been some things that are helped you to ensure that that client or athlete continues to exceed under your umbrella, if you will?

SPEAKER_02 27:56

Yeah, look, um that that particular athlete, maybe it was luck. Like he was a three or four-time world champion. I certainly don't say he's a he was lucky to be a world champion. He was worked extremely hard. But in saying that, he would cross-train and enter a an endurance cycle race and place with elite cyclists. So so he wouldn't mind me telling he he was an elite water skier, and there's not many of them around, but he also did did cross-training and and was a bit of a freak athlete that that could do anything. But I think initially working with with him is you know, what built that rapport was, you know, my willingness to find out everything about that sport. Now, we're talking about skiing behind a boat at 200 kilometres an hour. And now I can't do that safely, but I was willing to go and sit on a boat and watch a race and get them to come in and take lactates or take heart rates and get seasick or fly to Sydney for a race and a race in a river, or you see someone ski past and it's like two seconds, so go all the way to Sydney for a two-second application. So I think the the initially buy uh building that rapport to say, hey, I'm willing to do, you know, whatever it takes to make you better helps with the athlete buy-in that that they know that. And then obviously success, you know, success success builds success. So if you've um been successful, we were fortunate that there was a small group that had sort of multiple world champions in that group, which then that meant there was a bit of reputation then. You know, the next water skier wanted to come and be trained by me because I'd had success with other people.

SPEAKER_00 29:39

I just want to highlight that bit for a moment. I mean, I think it's not too common that you would see someone jump on the back of a boat and experience that so that they better understand the athlete. That's that's very seldom. And then of course, uh the flying interstate or international, wherever it was to sport that athlete. I think that's just the the level of going above and beyond that more people in in the profession need to do, myself included. I think, yeah, that's it sets the standard, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_02 30:08

Yeah, it was also related to foundational knowledge. You know, there was there was no research. I think I found one training article from the 70s that, you know, made some recommendations that I didn't agree with because they were probably outdated. So I was like, right, I need to figure out the physical demands of this sport because um uh I don't know. And I think that's where there's opportunity for practitioners where they come across a case that they don't know a lot about, um, and they need to go and investigate that um themselves a little bit bit further. So that that would be the the the similar type of scenario that I'd be encouraging people.

SPEAKER_00 30:43

For sure. Is there anything apart from that sort of understanding the the athlete going to if you're going above and beyond and obviously building that rapport that you would say are like the key principles to building those relationships with athletes or clients or patients that um uh translate into success with outcomes? And then also, I guess another thing is that that person just wants to keep coming back because they know they're gonna get better.

SPEAKER_02 31:08

Yeah. I mean, it's um again, it's cliched, but it's train the person, not the athlete. You know, um, have an understanding of the person and their life and what they do outside of the sport. And we talk about the 24-hour athlete, they might see us for an hour a day, they might see us for five hours a week. Well, what are they doing for the other 19 hours? And what are you what do you know about that? But how what can you help them um in those periods of time as well? Whether that's in terms of recovery, whether it's in terms of sleep, whether it's in terms of having an understanding of what they're doing in their workplace, their relationships out that outside of of the gym. So, you know, do they have a partner, do they have family, how many hours do they work, etc.? And and I think that's probably something that you is unique that I've would say I do reasonably well. And I can give you examples that I've been to weddings of my athletes, I've been to weddings of my PhD students. I've been invited to the the Brisbane Lions game this Friday night with two of my former students who I I thought I'm gonna sit with these guys. I've got one who's a multiple AFL premiership winner, and another one who's an NRL premiership winner, and that's a pretty cool thing to to to be able to do. And they still come back and talk to my students. And you know, it was only this year that one of them said, Oh yeah, I've been doing this for 16 years. I was like, wow, you know, I remember him as an undergrad. Um, yeah, it's sort of getting that understanding of the entire person and what makes them them tick outside of the workplace or outside of the gym. That that goes a lot further than you know, them walking out after a 40-minute session saying that was that was hard or I'm a little bit better.

SPEAKER_00 32:50

Yeah. Those sorts of skills I feel like aren't I really taught much in uni. Like we're always taught about like, you know, hard skills are important, soft skills are more like more important, is what they sort of say-ish, uh, from what I remember. But um there hasn't been any examples like the ones you just mentioned. Do you think, do you think there needs to be more of an emphasis in in university on developing the soft skills, or do you think that's something that the uni is already doing pretty well?

SPEAKER_02 33:16

I think it's hard. Uh, you know, we we have a limited amount of time to get a a lot of uh developmental knowledge in. Um I think there's an opportunity, I would say, in the practicum environment, we'll sort of go back to what we talked about earlier, the mentor. I think that's where there's a real opportunity for those soft skills to come into play because, and I don't know if you've had them, I don't particularly use them in any of my teaching because I find them fake. Is this, you know, you know, um a mock example, pretend to be this person or pretend to be this person, and it doesn't really work because it's not real. And we have to get in those environments, those real environments where we are dealing with re real people or who are introverted or extroverted or you know, had a bad day, and how do we deal with them on a um on a regular basis? And and how do you how do you mentor someone who doesn't know how to deal with those people? I I was very fortunate. I worked in in the fitness industry in the UK in London, one of the biggest gyms in London, and I had this great m manager slash mentor who taught me the skills of working a gym floor and having things like there's plenty of gyms where you go in and you see someone standing around not doing anything. And we had requirements that we had touch points with clients. So you had a minimum five touch points with clients, and we'd say, Oh, but they got headphones on. It's like, doesn't matter, go up and talk to them, you know. People like socialization, so yeah, let's get get talking to them. Um and and if they don't, they'll tell you. It's like, sorry, I don't want you to talk to me right now. I'm focused on this. That's okay. But they know next time if they do have a question that they can come to you with those things. All examples. But I think going back to your question, I think, yeah, the opportunity is in that that sort of practicum slash practium supervisor slash mentor space around soft skills because it's hard to manufacture soft skills in a in a class environment.

SPEAKER_00 35:12

Yeah, no, absolutely. I think, yeah, like you base basically you have to be in the in the real environment as the QT slogan goes for the for the real world. Um and on that note as well, like I I think that's a very it can be very daunting to to go up to someone that you've never met and start a conversation, but that's the only way you get better, right? It's um to do it and then see what works and then see what doesn't work. And when you're forced into that environment, such as what you had in the UK with getting five touch points with clients, it incentivizes all that behavior. But if you're never put in that environment in the first place, then you don't end up developing those skills. So yeah, I think I think the takeaway from that is get yourself in the get yourself in the environments.

SPEAKER_02 35:55

Yeah, but we also and we also talked at the start about networking at conferences, is like, you know, I I used to go to conferences and have supervisors say to me, right, and this is when business cards were a real thing. It's like you've got to get five business cards from people. And so you are forced to, and from people you don't know, and so you were forced to go and go and do that. And so the the modern day equivalent is is to go up to people and and whether you ask them or not, uh, is to is to perhaps get a LinkedIn connection afterwards. So you can go back, you remember their name, you can go back and search them up, or you can actually say to them, Hey, do you mind if I connect on LinkedIn? You know, uh, I had to do it at the conference. Yeah, I I got introduced to Bat Brad McGee, and I was like, is that Brad McGee, the the gold medal cyclist? Um and then by the end of the conference, I said to him, Hey Brad, it's okay to get your email address. I want to send you some stuff. So we're um we're constantly doing it. And and like you said, you only get better by doing it. If you sit back and don't get and don't do it, you won't improve.

SPEAKER_00 36:58

Absolutely. Yeah, on on the note of an improving, like I I think everyone, like myself included, like always, always striving to be better and to improve, you know, whether it's soft skills, hard skills, everything else. I think in in today's day and age, it seems that, you know, soft skills are the be all end all, and well, they're one of their most highly valued skills at least. And the and the perception of how you present yourself so is seems to be becoming more and more important. And with now AI doing a lot of the brunt work behind the scenes, that's that's possible. I guess apart from from that that soft skill, what else do you see as being some, and and and the critical thinking, I think is probably the second one you're probably gonna say, Vince. What else do you see as being some critical skills for our profession that either need to be honed more in university or in in early career days, or even just continually ongoing? So we have the soft skills, we have the critical thinking. Is there a third and a fourth?

SPEAKER_02 37:56

Um, I don't know if people are gonna like this. I think uh I think you need to experience what they're experiencing now to a degree. So a water skier who skis at 200 kilometers behind a boat, I'm not gonna do that because it's not safe. But have you, have you, can you run 5K? Can you run 10K? Do you train twice a week? Have you, have you tried these new, new programs that you're gonna be implementing? Yeah. So I think that that's important so that you can then, and we shouldn't with clients be talking about ourselves, but that you actually can build some rapport with them by saying, Yeah, I've I'm doing this challenge, or I have completed this, or I know how you're feeling. And I think that that builds a lot of confidence in clients and athletes when they know that that you've at least attempted some of the things that that they're that you're asking them to do. And I think it's certainly getting better. Um, I would say like 10 to 15 years ago, we would ask second or third years who goes to the gym, and we would see a small proportion of a class where I think it's the other way now around now. I think it's the the greater proportion. But I've always been into endurance sports. So I think I can ask the class about training in the gym, but then when I say, you know, do you would you ever run five times a week, or would you run 25 kilometers or 50 kilometers or know how to train someone that's interested in that? Um, and I'm not saying we have to go, everyone has to go and do an ultramarathon. I just think, you know, uh ha having a a bit of a challenge if you've only ever run 1K, then a 5K is a challenge and set yourself. I've often thought about it, but never got across the line from a risk perspective. But I I would love, you know, second-year students across the semester to say, okay, the challenge is you've got to do park run between week one and week 13. Um, and if you already do it, well, your challenge is to increase your time. And if you can only walk it, then your your challenge might be to walk jog it by the the end of it. Um so um just to sort of show people, you know, um consistent exercise isn't necessarily the easiest thing if it's not something that you like doing. And and what what what did you use in terms of your mechanisms to gain that consistency or get better? And how can you then use that information with your clients as well?

SPEAKER_00 40:18

No, I think that's a very good point. And whether or not it's an unpopular opinion, it's still I think a I think it's the right right thing. Yeah, like um at the the at the conference I was I was really uh like I was just thinking of an example. Like if Deke, if uh uh Robert Robert Dis uh Dekastella, yep. Dekostella, if he hadn't run a marathon and then he started this IMF Indigenous Marathon Foundation, how would that have went?

SPEAKER_02 40:45

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And and you know, there's there is a constant mar argument about looking the part and do you look the part? But you know, quite often I will say in some of my presentations, if I turn up dressed as a chef and I'm talking about exercise, what would you think? Now that's an extreme example, but uh yeah, I just like to use that to put it in people's mindsets to go, oh yeah, you know, perceptions actually mean something to people and you can enhance some of those perceptions quite easily.

SPEAKER_00 41:14

This is uh this is a um this might mattle some feathers. What's your thoughts on wearing pants when we're working with clients in the gym, like uh as in suit pants and and dress shoes?

SPEAKER_02 41:25

I don't really have an opinion on that one. I haven't thought about it long enough.

SPEAKER_01 41:30

Fair enough.

SPEAKER_02 41:34

I'm uh I'm a jeans and joggers type guy, so um team no pants. Yeah, yeah, that's probably me. Yeah. You can still look professional without having dress pants and leather shoes on. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:48

But um, but yeah, back to the point, yeah, practicing what you pre preach, particularly in our profession, I think is very important, like you said, to understand the person in front of you and what they've experienced. I guess for athletes and and people that want to do certain events, that definitely makes sense. How do you think that applies to people with pain, injuries, and chronic pain? Do you think it applies equally?

SPEAKER_02 42:09

Uh it's obviously a little bit more difficult, but I certainly know you know, I was a recreational athlete and I learned the most about any injury rehab when I had that injury myself. You know, I'm now an older recreational athlete and you know, had meniscus surgery two years ago and went back to an AEP for a program because I was out of the loop and he um he showed me a bunch of things that I hadn't hadn't seen um since since I'd I'd left that sort of um uh elite rehab environment. So and and and now I can use those skills again. Um yeah, but difficult. Um obviously with things like chronic pain, if people's never had chronic pain, probably the next best thing is around that case study example. But, you know, we we had um a question at the conference where it was like, raise your hand if you had chronic pain. And I was actually quite surprised to see the number of hands that came up in the in the audience. So that it is common enough that you could find someone within your network who either has had it or knows someone that you could get an understanding from that side of things. But yeah, I totally agree that that's it's a little bit more difficult. And certainly my experience as I get older and my generation gets metabolic diseases or cancer or Parkinson's that I'm increasingly aware compared to what I was when I was like, the only thing I will care about is, you know, an elite athlete um running faster, jumping higher, tackling harder, lifting more, you know, to get the the top one percent to win a medal. And I couldn't have cared less about that field, but you know, now it's important to me because it it's it's my friends, it's my family, and I want to help them as well.

SPEAKER_00 43:59

Yeah, also. Sounds like that's evolved as it sort of went through the career and the age. Yeah, no, like I I think that's a very good point. Particularly with the chronic pain it is and and injuries, it's definitely hard to to replicate. And perhaps the second best thing, like you said, would be the the case study. So having worked with people that have had success in the past.

SPEAKER_01 44:19

Yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_00 44:20

And if you haven't really worked in the space, then maybe it's better off to refer to someone that that has or shadow underneath someone that has for sure. Um we've talked a lot about obvious the the research and the performance and and practice. Vince, I know something that I'm curious about, and I know you um definitely have some perspectives on this moving forward as around the sort of you know leadership and and governance in in the profession. Yeah, Katie Linden's is I think she's doing a fantastic job in her role. Um she seems very proactive with everything that she's doing as CEO of Esso. Do you think there are any particular roles or people with certain skill sets that are currently missing within say like yes aboard?

SPEAKER_02 45:04

That's a that's a hard one. There's certainly there is currently a vac some vacancies on the board, so and that's because Brendan, the former president, he's done his maximum term, so he he can no longer, which is good corporate governance. We have Emma, who's, you know, the the current president, she is on a term, so she'll be obviously she's applied for renewal. And then Katie, having moved from a board position to a CEO position, there's another vacancy. So I think there's some um, I guess some general leadership roles that are available. The board generally has a skills matrix that they try to to say we don't have a particularly strong skill set in X or Y. And I think that's why the Constitution is set up really well, that there's member voted board members and then there's appointed board members as well to perhaps fill some of those gaps. But I think it's I guess it's the member voted ones where you know it potentially could be a popularity contest that um uh a nominee knows more people so they get on, where they may not have an extensive understanding of the organization. So that would that would that would be the only thing that I would like to see is uh that we have board members who have a real long understanding of the organization. And I and I'm guilty of it myself. I nominated for the board probably 10 years ago, not really knowing what I was nominating for. And it's probably fortunate that I didn't get voted on because I then went, hang on, what don't I know about this? And I went and volunteered in a number of different committees. I then had the opportunity to be appointed to the accreditation council, so get a real understanding, because we we've got to remember that it's an organization, yes, it's a member organization, but it's based on robust regulation and accreditation. You know, the reason why it is so strong is because of those regulation standards that we have in place. So having an understanding of that, and then through that role, had it had um an opportunity to be involved in a couple of strategic plans around the board. So I guess my advice to people, members who are voting, is to perhaps um look at people who have had that that type of understanding of the organization. And and it's great. Oh, we had this discussion um at the conference, it's great that we've got lots of people nominating um because it means lots of people are willing to help and and we certainly don't want to say no to people who who help. Um, but also we want we want people who really understand as much of the business as possible.

SPEAKER_00 47:39

Yeah, I guess on that mode, my my follow-up question is it is obviously a a business and an organization and and it has those regulations in place. With every business, there has to be a fine allocation of resources and and funding. Um do from my I have no understanding of how the board works, Vince. So do FSA board members get a say in where sort of the resources go towards?

SPEAKER_02 48:03

Yeah, well they they I mean they um really are the governing body of the organization. So they sign off on the budget, for example. They employ the CEO. So yes, they they have a very strong in input into the the running of the organization.

SPEAKER_00 48:19

Okay, yeah, that makes sense. And yeah, of course, there'd be uh plenty of of things that could be done in terms of you know where those resources could be put, where the time and energy could be put. What like hypothetically, where might you say that those resources could be could be well spent, even even just to start with?

SPEAKER_02 48:37

Yeah. Um, well, I I think a lot of that um I mean I mean there's the regulation side of it, and there's a whole national review going on at the moment around that. So that's going to influence where the board ends up in that space. But certainly there's 11-ish thousand members, so it's important that we listen to the members and what they want and helping meet their needs. And it's it's quite clear there's a couple of things we talked about it earlier, is um is advocacy. You know, we we need to be um when when people say I'm an exercise physiologist or I'm a sports scientist or I'm an exercise scientist, we need the answer to be that's really interesting. Who do you work with? Not what's that? And I think there's a real opportunity in in all sorts of spaces. The board in their last strategic plan had a pillar called the something like the green and gold runway or something along those lines where where they're looking at the 2032 Olympics and Paralympics to build advocacy, not for sports science, for the whole organization. So when people go talk about Olympics-paralympics, they they say, oh, the legacy is going to be 50,000, 500,000 people doing more physical activity. How do we do that? Oh, well, we do that using, and we might use some principles from sports science. We might say, well, sports science do this at the elite level, and this is how it feels filters down for the average Joe or Jane. And so I think advocacy is a is a key one. Everyone's pretty clear, hopefully, if they're not, get on and and sign the petition around GST. You know, that's been a focus for the board for a very long time. Um, because the members are asking for that. The board, the board wanted to, but now they've got um a structured campaign. And the other thing around advocacy and using sport as a vehicle, you know, if you ask someone on the street, well, you know, what does physical activity in the NDIS mean? They've probably got no idea. And if you read it, it's probably buried, you know, on the 20th page somewhere. But if they read the back paper or a page of the paper or they're talking about someone who's coming back from an injury, then we use that opportunity to say, uh, yeah, do you know that's an accredited practitioner who has come from our organization? And and and we use whatever vehicle that that's going to be successful for us to get people talking. And that's, you know, Duncan Armstrong's have been a great appointment by the board because he knocks on the door and they go, Oh, wow, Duncan Armstrong, come in, you know, you know, the gold medal, and and and they know him through sport, and then he he talks about the organization, and it's a bit like we had we had Deeks, like Deke's is doing great things in in in in charity foundation work, but we knew him because of his his sporting success and then his his work within the sporting field. So so there they're two things in in terms of advocac advocacy, GST. I think uh clearer pathways. We still need clearer pathways for our uh for our practitioners. So that you know, it a bit like when when I said earlier and they say, you know, I'm an AES or I'm an AEP, that year 12 students go, uh, you know, I want a career in physical activity, exercise, sport. You can say, okay, what are you interested in? I'm interested in getting people fitter, right? Here's a pathway for you. I'm interested in getting people healthier, here's a pathway for you. I'm interested in in achieving sporting success, here's a pathway for you. And I think there's a little bit of lack of clarity there. Um, and and I think there's an opportunity to say, no, no, there actually is um, you know, uh real pathways for all three of our um accredited professions.

SPEAKER_00 52:39

Yeah, no, that's a really good point. Uh yeah, because you want to make sure that each each um each pathway and each profession is is recognized as its own profession, its own pathway. Like I have colleagues that are exercise scientists and then the colleagues that are EPs and then the colleagues that are sports scientists. And often what I hear from not always, but sometimes is what I hear from exercise scientists is, oh, damn it, I wish I did an extra year, or I wish I'd have something extra, or they wish they went to sports science, or they and it's like, well, does that mean that the exercise scientists is being is essentially being left in the dark? Is there is there something more that could be done there? Is there more, like you said, clear pathway and clear dis clear distinction? And then for people going into the profession like myself, when I when I first started, I started doing exercise science and I was going to be graduated as an exercise scientist. And it was only after, you know, halfway through the end of the second year, because the first years are identical between EP and sports science, exercise. Yes. Oh, okay, I'm actually gonna um transition to EP. And that was because of the uh I heard other people talking about the differences, but prior to that I had not really much understanding of what an exercise physiologist was.

unknown 53:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 53:54

Yeah, and so again, that's just that going back to that advocacy and saying, oh, you know, when we hear this argument, oh yeah, you know, 10 10 plus years ago there was the argument, well, there's no jobs for EPs. Well, now there's 11,000 EPs. Um now if we had just said 10 years plus years ago, oh well, we won't do anything, um, then then there wouldn't be jobs. I kind of see this same pathway with sports science as uh probably not to the same volume, obviously, but there's there's definitely it's definitely a growing profession and there more are more opportunities.

SPEAKER_00 54:29

Yeah, absolutely. And that's I think that's vividing to hear that like, yeah, 10 years ago there weren't many uh jobs at all, and there weren't many opportunities, and now we're in a we're in a really good space, and and we have now the opportunity to appoint people to then um focus on these next issues. But if we hadn't addressed that first issue, we wouldn't have gone to the next. And so maybe there's people on here listening and saying, Oh, what about this issue? What about this? I think you're right, Vince, in saying that, you know, the most important things are the advocacy, uh the other clarity of pathways, those sorts of things. Because if we don't have that, then maybe the small and minor issues don't really matter.

SPEAKER_02 55:08

Yeah, and that that's um that's the advantage of history learning. Like we didn't have course accreditation all those years ago. People graduated from their degree and had to apply for individual accreditation, and it was just bubbling along. Once the universities were required to have course accreditation, that's when the numbers started increasing. And we've just seen the same thing now, 10 or 15 years later, that we we sort of have we had individual sports science accreditation, and now we're going to course accreditation as well. So when people graduate, they'll graduate with the standards and with the requirements to meet the requirements as a sports scientist. And I think there's, and with that will come more sports science practicum opportunities where they'll have a chance to excel and provide um uh a chance for themselves to, you know, create a position for for themselves as as they go along. So I think that's um you know one of the advantages of history is that we sort of um can see what things have worked in the past at ESSA and how how we can use them um to continue to build the um uh the industry and the organization and the membership.

SPEAKER_00 56:20

Yeah, absolutely. And experience is absolutely necessary. Vince, um, if people want to well, actually, before we before we wrap up, we do have a bit of a closing tradition on this on this podcast. Um now take your time to to to think uh to think about it. I'm not prepared for this one. It is a bit of a vague question, but uh what's one topic or issue you think EPs, ex science, sports science should be talking about more openly with each other?

SPEAKER_02 56:49

Uh I think we go sorry uh you know, I'm probably not gonna say anything new because I I totally think they should be talking about advocacy. They should be talking about building building the industry. And and I've been asked this a a lot lately, and it was only in the last couple of days where I I heard this and I said it earlier. And it's like what differentiates us? And and it was actually one of the marketing managers from Essa who who um mentioned it in this way, and they said it's the science of exercise. And and and I think those three words um quite easily give people an understanding of the issue of you know, lack of ref recognition or lack of differentiation. Yeah, what what differentiates you? Um and and I understand there's a bit in the you know differentiation of an AEP and a physio, and it doesn't answer that quite so much. But even within that space, you could be saying it's the science of exercise, whereas you might differentiate a physio as the science of rehabilitation. And and I think we can be using that term and forget about the exactly what you said is like you know, we got 11,000 members. We're not everyone's not going to agree, you know. Well, I don't do exercise, I do physical activity, or I don't do exercise, I do sport science. Or uh, you know, it's like, okay, so you're doing biomechanics, and that that athlete is exercising, aren't they? So I think we we get caught up in the minutiae of trying, like you said, trying to please everyone. Whereas I think we can just say, hey, let's just agree that it's actually the science part, call it exercise physic activity, rehab, what whatever it might be, but it's the science part that differentiates us, and we need more people aware of that. So that that's kind of the you know, I think one of the issues is confusion. And if we can ease that confusion with people to say, yeah, I I'm a scientist, I apply scientific principles to programming, uh, whatever that programming might be, I think um we will build ourselves stronger rather than rather than saying, well, you know, you know, I shouldn't be doing sport science because I don't have a proper accreditation, or I shouldn't be doing an EP because I'm only an ES. It's like, yes, there's some issues within that, but that's more scope of practice. Whereas, you know, we need to band together and say, hey, hey, we're scientists. And I will say this to my strength and conditioning students to say, you know, do you do you need to be able to play a sport to be a good strength and conditioning coach in that sport? No, you just need to be able to apply those principles of strength conditioning or the science of strength conditioning to any particular sport. And and it's no different to any client or patient that presents with a different um problem or health health problem that we just apply the scientific principles to those problems. But the key being the science. So yes, you did quit catch me out a little bit there, but yeah. Science is the one.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:08

Yeah, no, I I definitely agree. And I think another point you sort of mentioned there, uh Vince, is like coming together in our profession and and yeah, moving forward stronger together rather than being divided.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:21

Yeah, a hundred percent.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:23

Just just a really quick follow-up from that, uh, as well as um like on the topic of you know, coming together and and contributing towards developing the profession as a whole, what opportunities are out there for people that do want to um to to to to do that?

SPEAKER_02 1:00:39

Yeah, so there's lots of opportunities. I would say the first one, the most simple one, is for members to complete the member survey because they actually get scrutinized with a lot of detail. Um, I've seen the amount of work that goes into the analysis of those surveys. And those surveys are used for decision making around what we talked about earlier. That, you know, where does the money go? Why, why are we seeing ESA doing a big GST campaign? Is because one of the top three issues that members said was removing GST. So, you know, you might think, oh, it's it's a survey, no one's going to look at that. But when you have 10,000 people completing a survey, you get some pretty good statistics. So I'd encourage people to fill out the annual survey. But from then, from there, I think there's an opportunity in a number of different ways. I think where we miss practitioner, for example, and I understand it's difficult because it takes time out of their days, and it's certainly something we've been talking about at the council level is how can we get more practitioners involved in our councils because you know they're uh extended meetings quite a few times a year where people have got to, you know, withdraw themselves for their practice where they're not earning any money. But there is consultation. Um, so as an example might be when we have a review of any of the standards, the sports science, the exercise science, or the EP standards, that that you you actually think about five years ago, we weren't doing any programming for people with um mental illness. That needs to be in the standards because that's what who are presenting on our doorsteps as practitioners. So ESA only knows that by uh having people contribute when they are asked for for general consultation. And I appreciate there's a lot of information in the ESSA newsletters, but there is regular calls for consultation on um uh different things. There's also regular calls for advocacy. You know, the advocacy unit, you can actually send them an email and say, hey, look, I'm a person that um I want to advocate for our industry. So when they, you know, have um a reporter or um someone on the radio or a podcaster say, can we talk to someone about you know what it's like to be um a young exercise physiologist or what the industry's like or things like that, then we want people who are willing to do that. So there's a few different pathways there. And and then lastly, I would say, exactly as you do, Lenny, you're really good at it, is you know, get out to the um PD, talk to people within ESSER, and then you get a better understanding of how ESSER works. And and when you've got an issue, and I can't imagine you having an accreditation issue, but if you ever did, I'm sure you'd be quite willing to send me the message and say, Hey Vince, can we have a chat about uh accreditation? I've got this thought. And because I know you and have interacted with you in those environments, you know, ESSA staff or ESSA volunteers, I'm essentially just a volunteer, will go, yeah, you've got the the industry at heart and you want to improve it. So yeah, let's let's chat, listen. There's there's lots of opportunities, and and it's something that I um feel quite strongly about when perhaps some people maybe apply for a position within some um a voluntary position and they're not successful, that we don't lose that person. Because, you know, ESA started based on, you know, volunteerism. You know, that was it was some academic staff who said we need to to build an all an organization to protect um uh our graduates. And there was a bunch of academics who volunteered for those roles. Now that's built a long way, but we still will continue to grow with the with more people putting their hand up to help out. And and they're the next generation because you know, people will get old and we need more people to come in to fill those roles.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:44

Yeah, no, absolutely, I agree. Is there anything um yeah, anything else you wanted to add on that note?

SPEAKER_02 1:04:51

I think I think I covered that. I think there's nothing wrong with actually people saying, look, I I don't know what I can do, but I want to help. And that's how I started. Uh I started with the Essa Queensland chapter. I don't really know what the Queensland chapter is or what it does, but um, is there an opportunity to get involved? Um, and I did that and got involved and then got a better understanding of some of the the different um uh groups within ESSER. And I, you know, at the time there was a sports science advisory group said, hey, um, that's my area, you know, can I help out with that? Um, and then they might have a project and you say, Hey, can I lead that project? And then the longer I was there, the more I got an understanding of standards and accreditation, and and that was something I was interested in as well. And so I volunteered for that role as well. So I'm I'm not I'm hoping I'm not scaring people off. Um, but um but just just you know, showing that having some interest is great. And and like I said to you, the fact that we've got multiple people nominating for the board is great because it means lots of people are passionate about the organization?

SPEAKER_00 1:06:01

Yeah, no, I think that I think um that will probably hearing that is going to attract the people that are interested and then for people that aren't, it is it is what it is, but perhaps maybe later on they will be. So it's really, really comforting to hear to hear that. If people want to get in contact with you, um, where can they best find you?

SPEAKER_02 1:06:22

Um ac academics can't hide on the internet. So our emails are everywhere. So people um can just just search the QT website, they'll find my email.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:33

I typically um most of my uh academic slash essa work will um um and obviously I know the um essa board nomination is coming coming up how can people like where do people go to to nominate yeah yeah yeah for sure cool all right Vince no it's been a pleasure to have you on and it's not very often you get to sit down and have an hour ish long conversation with one of your previous university tutors. So I need that I'll definitely be keen on um having a conversation. Yeah that'd be really good actually I think it's it's really uh relevant. So yeah let's keep in contact and keen to get you back on. All right thanks Vince